After consuming all of that - whatever that was - I feel like it's late Thanksgiving afternoon and I'm so bloated I just need to take a long, long nap.

Nuke, can I suggest next time just a link for those interested?

Lefty

Let's take a look in my head right now...*SEcret exists! How? Where? Another one? Yay!! Oh, this is complex...Clubhead lag? Of course! How? waggle - check, left wrist firm - got it, oh, right wrist pronate...damn, thought I had it. Keep head still...oh, damn, can't do that! I'm losing it...better go read it again........Mmm, perhaps I'll just 'turn back and through' instead...*

 Sorry if I'm cynical, but i can't help thinking you have an agenda for all of this. Nobody here really cares about this stuff, and those who do can get their fill on other sites.

BM might be a guru to some, but to me, his attitude sucks. I have never been able to stomach Ivory Tower types who act as if they've been to the top of the mountain and shake their head condescendingly when they explain to you why you can never know what they know.

As for the big secret of controlling clubhead lag, wooo-hooo, stop the presses!

If you turn back through the shot with dead arms and hands, guess what, you'll control your clubhead lag!

I'm all for making golf simple and uncomplicated. It seems to me CQ is too. A rarity among golf instructors.

Lefty

People,,,,

Both adhere to certain principles, but certainly not cast in stone. Both Q. and bman roll with the student...the flipside, keep them controversial, it draws attention...good for both instructors!

Clubhead lag is no secret.  The secret is getting it. My suggestion is  to understand the concept, to give it a try applying it to Q teachings and "feel" what you think, and then choose to embrace it or not.

"If you turn back through the shot with dead arms and hands (centrifugal force, generally), guess what, you'll control your clubhead lag!"...

how much or how little will you really contol?...

Bob,

Firstly, I don't have a horse in this race. I have no affiliation to CQ other than as a member of this forum. My observations of BM are just that, observations.

I can tell you what I know from swinging a golf club. I've danced with them all and I can tell you that if you just let your hands lightly hold onto the club and get out of your own way, the clubface will be delivered flush at impact. I don't know why, but it happens.

There are variables - mostly change of spine angle - and those can and do impact the shot. My best strikes to me seem like they're straight. Sometimes it's a little draw or a little fade. Only when I seek to introduce control with the hands - a damned habit from my 2ps days - do I hook the ball.

All of that said, there are a myriad of ways to successfully hit a golf ball. Look at the PGA Tour.

Lefty

 Anybody that thinks they can somehow manipulate the clubhead into a position to give them lag is barkin up the wrong tree.

 Lag is created with a flowing takeaway followed by a downswing that's sequenced .....it's dynamic.....it's a "result"......whether it's 1 plane.......2 plane or a mixture of both. Speed helps lag.............but only if in proper rythem.

 Even if the manipulation was the technique...it couldn't be repeated..............especially over the course of a round..........

Over the past 20 years, I've tried all kinds of things to develop lag and clubhead control. Personally, I never got it until as Chuck would say, "I gave up control to gain it." He usually talks of this when describing the mental part of the game but I think it's equally applicable to the physical act of swinging the club. When I use the big muscles inside my core only, the little muscles take care of themselves resulting in a good amount of clubhead speed and control.  More so than I ever expected especially from "taking lessons" over the internet

Very cool that Chuck's methods allow parts of the swing to happen automagically wihtout having to try to do it... It just happens and is a result like randini describes above from doing a few other very simple things...

Regards,

Bob

 I don't care what terms are used.....what mechanic uses whatever  wrench........1 plane or 2 plane or 20 plane swing......if you wind up somewhat properly and unwind somewhat properly......you will achieve clubhead lag.........

 it didn't take members access for me to figure that out..........I learned that from high school,  throwing footballs and pitching baseballs.........both have "lag" in the mechanism

 heck..........for that matter, just about every physical move we make with our bodies has an element of lag in it...........we move something, something leads, then something follows........

 lag is a "result".....not a manipulation  and I prefer a KISS method to get the result

I don't care what terms are used.....what mechanic uses whatever  wrench........1 plane or 2 plane or 20 plane swing......if you wind up somewhat properly and unwind somewhat properly......you will achieve clubhead lag.........lag is a "result".....not a manipulation

For most, to obtain maximal results will generally require manipulation until a desired result becomes automatic. This includes clubhead lag.

bobdeep,

I think that is the point that you may not totally see. What the guys have experienced here is that it doesn't take manipulation, and in fact, the manipulation is exactly what causes the loss of lag and control. FWIW, I have no problem with TGM whatsoever. It's not for me and not what I teach because it, in my opinion, is a much more difficult way to learn to swing and play golf. I completely agree that everything in it is sound, but until you have experienced the one plane swing the way these guys have, with a lack of manipulation, you won't truly understand it. I think Lefty said it best in one of his posts yesterday. He said something to the effect that "keeping the arms passive and just turning back maintains lag and just crushes the ball. I don't know how it happens, it just happens." (paraphrased, of course). But that's the jist of it. Keeping your arms passive and rotating properly creates a tremendous dynamic that makes a golfer feel like they don't have control of their arms or the club at first, but the results are overwhelmingly convincing. In my experience, it has been those who have tried every method under the sun and understand them pretty well that have the most success with switching over to the way I teach the swing. They're sort of tired and done with understanding all the mechanics and physics of the swing and just want to play good golf the way they always knew they could. It's much more simple than manipulating, but it has to be experienced in order to be fully understood.

Hardy's 1ps concept was introduced to me last spring followed by your website in the summer with Swing Plane Made Simple video following thereafter.  Today, the core of my swing remains as rotating around a "fixed" axis with arms and hands responding passively to the larger muscle group.

Hardy's book put me on the right track with describing differences with 1ps and 2ps, basically plane angle variations.  However, what I found more exciting was the concept of "swinging" and how Hardy presented it in a very simple format along with your presentation.   “Swinging” was the lightbulb.

Today, I can reflect and describe my former swing as a “hitter”, more of a push, with the right side driving toward the ball.  My transition had a momentary pause where with the sensation of massive loading took place and then firing my right side toward the ball.  I haven’t tried every pattern underneath the sun, but I found myself fiddling with different combinations because I was never really comfortable with my swing.  Better yet, I did not understand my swing.  

The concept of swinging versus hitting was never clear until I was introduced to TGM. And now, I’ve come full circle to appreciate and understand both types of swings.

I understand the message being conveyed.  Manipulation disrupts lag, centrifugal force.  Manipulation can disrupt nearly all parts of the golf swing. 

Another perspective is manipulative forces are a must for those who are new to 1ps, those that are struggling, and those that are fine tuning their swing. In effect, this is a larger portion of what an instructor or the self instructed does.  This includes “learning” passive hands.  I went through it, and so have most of the students of 1ps. No exception to lag. Now, there are a fortunate few who understand and employ techniques automatically.  But for most, to maximize its potential, this requires applied “education” via “manipulation” until it becomes natural. 

Regarding TGM, the book is one of the most challenged books ever published.  Continuity is an issue and makes for a difficult read.  However, with the help of a few contributors in cyberspace, it has become easier to understand the catalog of golf information.  Overall, a ton of wonderful information.

Last note, lag is not that terribly difficult to understand.  Today, I continue to manipulate, to educate, to transition my swing to obtain maximum results from lag. I wish it were as simple as a mere byproduct of centrifugal force…and glimpses of success on the course suggest it will soon become “passive”.        

Club, undoubtedly, you have made leaps and bounds in your progress in the last few weeks. I'm proud of you man. You will truly enjoy the mental article coming out later this month, it will firmly put you on solid ground from here on out. Like the other "lessons", it may be a challenge at first, but since you don't have to waste energy worrying about whether or not you're creating lag, you will be able to put more energy into the things I lay forth in the new article. Exciting times, man, exciting times!

Guys and Gals,

Want to know what clubhead lag feels like? Try the broom drill and when the "whoosh" sound happens somewhat out in front of you toward the target, guess what? You've just experienced clubhead lag and primarly felt it in the fingers of the right hand (for righties) particularly in the forefinger. 

Can lag be taught? Perhaps not, but as someone has already pointed out, lag is a result of an action or actions within the swing and in the case of the 1PS, teaching someone to learn to use passive arms and hands in the swing and to properly rotate the torso will result in that clubhead lag at impact without any thought about it whatsoever.

How do you know if you've generated any clubhead lag during an actual golf swing? Oh, you'll know from the sound of the ball being compressed against the clubface (nothing like it) and then ball rocketing off towards the target with that hissing sound that a well struck shot has, and the feeling the the swing that caused it was totally effortless! (picture Stuart Applby here)

As far as simple vs. complex goes, the choice is entirely up to the individual. We can choose to make it as complex or simple as we want as as Chuck has stated, neither is wrong. Whatever turns your crank or rings your bell, ie., whatever works for you as a golfer. As for me, I prefer to keep things as simple as possible. The less that my 62 year old brain can process and still make a quality pass at the ball the better off I am. It easy to overload a computer of that age, you know. That is why when I found this site and Jim Hardy's book, it felt that I had come home from a long and arduous journey. With the help of Chuck and others on these forums, my swing has steadily progressed to the point that I fully expect to get into the single digits with my handicap next season. So for me, Chuck's teaching approach was and is the correct choice. YMMV!

Regards,

Magic

CQ: How can i join if i dont have PAYPAL? DO you accept VISA/Mastercard?

-BOb (Philippines)

Hey Guy's,

Great Thread!!! I love to see golfer's argue passionately over the means that have led to their success.

I have been viewing this site occassionally for a little while now, I have not yet read Jim Hardy's book. I will probrably start this week, since this thread has peaked my interest.

I am familiar with TGM, so here is my question.

Does one plane and two plane swinging use only centrifigal force???

TGM uses two forces centrifigal or centrepetal, and I'm surprised that has not been mentioned yet.

Not saying one method is better than the other. Just Curious???

B-Ray

Keep this in mind when you are over your next four foot putt for ten bucks.

Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/force.html#defor - force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force. The force has the magnitude

Swinging a http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/newt.html#strmas - mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf2 - centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/circ.html#circ - circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

Note that the centripetal force is proportional to the square of the velocity, implying that a doubling of speed will require four times the centripetal force to keep the motion in a circle. If the centripetal force must be provided by friction alone on a curve, an increase in speed could lead to an unexpected skid if friction is insufficient

And all along I thought on four footers you just picked a line and stroked it down that line!

I shoulda paid more attention in physics class

Lefty