How many of you one planers know how you release the club? If so, do you roll the forearms like Ernie Els, hold off and push  like Hogan? Here's a pic of Hogan at impact:

Note how he still has his right elbow back by his hip and is really driving through with his right hand. This move requires a lot of lateral movement to keep your right elbow behind your hip and not release your arms out away from your body.

Late into the release he still has not rolled his right forearm over his left. The opposite can be seen in Snead:

This move is even more evident in Ernie Els:

I've always had a later roll in the forearms more like Hogan:

How do you release the club?

Check out how much Ernie rolls his forearms right after impact:

Classic Ernie at impact, his right elbow is no where near his right hip and is dead straight:

I am a pusher

And it is quite a difference in how to perform the swing (within OPS) between a pusher and a roller.

I am starting to think being a roller is easier to learn, the body is more supportive.  A pusher needs more athletism ? More pure body control.

But I believe it is smaller variations.

My reason for being a pusher is Hogan and that a pusher rotates the club less from impact to right after impact.  I have an undocumented view of that being a little bit more consistent.

For power I think it is the same if one chooses 2PS, OPS push/roll.  there is a finite power stored in the body and using the body, arms, hands, rolling, pushing or any other thing correctly, one will shoot long enough.  For accuracy ?  That is maybe another question I do not know any facts about.

Chuck

I agree in what you say.  Makes sence to me.  But I feel being a pusher requires more from the balance and body control rather than the hands and arms.  I have to control the arms with the body.  If I let the arms go I will not know what they do at impact. Could be that what you say about training of the hands and arms is the same as I feel.

Jonag, you bring up an interesting point about the "push" release that Hardy references because I think there is more than one push, or perhaps a variation. You can clearly see above that Hogan is pushing through impact with his body and right hand and avoiding the rollover. But, there are also golfers who push and don't have their left arms across their body. Ernie is one of them as he is quite square at impact compared to Hogan. This also seems to be the same impact position that TGM teaches where the hands are trained to do this and get into this position where the right elbow works well out in front of the hip. You can see this here in a picture of Brian Manzella, a TGM'er:

 Chuck, that's a great point about the push being tough on the wrists. I've spent some time over on BM's site over the winter to learn a thing or 2. I like to see how other swings work as you do, and I think I'm better off now because of it.

  Anyways, I worked alot on the "Trevino impact" position that you can easily see in BM's logo on his site. It helped me alot to understand what was happening at impact, and i could hit it ok that way as well. My wrists did feel it on some swings if i got too steep with it and forgot to swivel after impact. Even if you are holding on and pushing, the club still has to come back inside or to the left. If you hold on and push out to right field, i think that's when you feel it the most, especially in the left wrist.

I posted this link on a thread started by timchong thread just now, but it is relevant for this one as well: Gary Player's analysis of Tiger Woods vs.  Ben Hogan's release.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0

From Gary's comments and the video it seems like Hogan pushes the ball and Tiger Woods (circa Dubai) tends to be more a "roller" of the forearms.    

Chuck

I agree with the difference in Hogan and TGM.  I am not trying to reach any positions with the hands, just be able to push both hands down an through impact being agressive with the hips.  I have to be connected to the body, creating lag and not width or hight with the arms.

OP

If you are a rollover I understand we have different views of the use of the body.  The arms are not the main power source in a rollover (?!), I guess one need to tranfer the body power to the rollover action of the arms.  Being a pusher, I want to be agressive and slap the club down into the ball with the whole lot.  And to not get a breakdown in the left wrist at impact, the rotation and clearing of the hips and shoulders must be agressive.  I feel there is some of the gator arms there as well.

CQ: I'm not sure about this statement? " I think the push requires more strength, coordination and training of the hands and arms, especially the left, but both."  I have found the opposite to be true as I'm not that strong. I'm fairly coordinated, but the only thing I train my hands to do is stay cupped at the top of BS. After that I can just rotate away. The cupping seems to be the way to keep from rolling my wrists? On my downward rotation, my R elbow stays behind my R hip and I can just push on through(sort of a just hang on to club feeling). However, you're the expert on this. Maybe if my swing was to really get better, I would have to be much stronger? I have picked up 10yds on my drives and some yardage on my irons, so I am more than satisfied with the pushing motion.

Skully: one thing that has NEVER bothered me is my wrists. They have never been sore or hurt.

I used to be a pusher and then became a roller and now would like to go back to being a pusher because of the aforementioned hooks/pulls, my nemesis. Being right handed in most things, I actually don't mind the stress on my right wrist from the hard push release but I have to say I'm not in love with the fade, hence a bit of a dilemma. No question the roller's a lot easier on the body.

It's an interesting point you make, CQ, about how much easier it is to keep the back elbow back with Hogan's lateral move. Far easier than with Hardy's swing and there's no doubt this is what I most struggle with (along with keep the hands in the inner circle because of the "over-the-top" aspect of the DS). I have found that the only way to make it happen with a reasonable degree of certainty is to feel like you rotate around the front leg. This probably doesn't actually happen but it sure feels like I keep my weight pretty much on the front foot throughout.

The bottom line, though, is that there's a myriad of ways to swing the club. I was clowning around on the range late yesterday with a buddy of mine and I was doing my (left-handed) Vijay impersonation (lots of lateral movement, taking the club back with the hip, no hip resistance, hip bump, fire the lower body through, lose the spine angle etc) and absolutely smoking the ball. He then started picking it up off the ground a la Freddie (which is nothing like his usual swing) and pured it, too.

So, in the end, it doesn't matter which you choose, as long as you're comfortable with it (ie, doesn't exacerbate physical problems) and it's repeatable.

Lefty

Jonag, the key difference is that you have a light-ish grip (and fairly neutral) if you're rollover and a strong-ish, firm grip if you're a pusher, ie, you don't ALLOW the rollover. All things being equal (NB, B-Up!) the forearms will rollover naturally if they are allowed to.

I've long struggled with this and, frankly, have chosen to overlook it. I keep my hands in the inner circle on the way back, as much as possible, but it's hard to do when you're coming "over the top" on the way down and the hands want to follow the shoulders and come away from the body. Hardy wants you in there really tight by the hip at impact. Not that it's impossible but it ain't easy.

I have to say my game sort of suffered throughout this whole "throw the arms" phase. Not only was this hard release tough on the body but, to me, it introduced a complexity which brought with it timing and the need to "train" the body.

I liked simplicity better.

Lefty

OnePlane,

Ah, that little yank inside.  Starting during a round on Sunday, on the front nine, I started to play consistently from the left woods.  Got my swing more "up" on the back nine and played very well.  Again yesterday, I was left again most of the day.  Hit the range after the round and my buddy, the technocrat, comes along and says "your first move back is inside.  The clubhead at 9 0'clock should be outside your hands."  Doh!  We worked on that for a little while and all was well again.  Going back to last season, occassionally I get inside and all heck breaks loose.  During the winter, I was working on my takeaway when hitting the Impact Bag in Da Basement.  Have gotten away from the little practice sessions and it has bitten me.  Reviewed Chuck's article on the takeaway again today, and after work it is back to the range for some more correction.

Gang,

At Hayes's urging I bought "see and feel the inside move".  After reading a good bit of the book I am amazed at how simple the OPS can be.  I am also really thankful that hayes recommended the book.  For a novice, putting a picture in my head of a good swing is harder than thinking about "left arm on chest ... don't move it, club head outside then hands a 9 o'clock ... turn the core, don't roll the wrists, belt buckle left of target and a fa la la la la la la".  How can that be "easier" than a picture? Try it, can you picture your front door?  See you just did it.    I need to do it on the course.  Not sure how this fits, but I roll the club.  I had a spinal fusion when younger and lower back issues have been an issue for me since I starting playing golf.  That massive push release has caused problems for me after my range time. 

I obviously don't understand all I know about this.  The hands roll over naturally as they cross in front of the body.  If you have a TPS with less body rotation so that you are square, or almost, at impact, your hands will naturally roll over because they are passing in front of your body at impact.  If you have a OPS with your body open at impact, you would naturally have a push release because, by the time the hands get to the front of your body, the ball will long be gone.  I suppose that you could train yourself in a TPS to push release, or in a OPS to rollover release, but both would take a lot of training against the natural grain of the swing. 

rp

 I tend to agree with you, rprevost; Look at Chad Campbells' swing. I think he's a great 1pner to look at for reference. He rolls his hands over, but not until well after impact. Look here... http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/83757/1/2912863 - http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/83757/1/2912863

 Agreed OP, there's no doubt that the clubface rotates, otherwise you'd the the back of the ball with the back of the hozzle

 I think the difference is that there's no active rotation through the hitting area.

Chuck, what are the differences inbetween the slap/hinge and push ? From what I can tell from other threads the slap/hinge is quite similar to the push, though the for the slap/hinge the left wrist hinge back sooner after impact and the right wrist remain hinged back for a longer period of time. To me, this sounds like the major difference in ball flight inbetween the two would be a lower and more penetrating ball flight with the push release, as the club get a bit more delofted. True ? Any other differences worth mentioning ?

Myself, from what I can tell from my swing vids I seem to be a slap/hinger - not really bothering with the release at the moment, letting it happen as it will through body rotaion.

OP, the steepening affect of a closed clubface is apparent during the backswing. Take a backswing and roll the club face wide open. You will see the club wants to work back behind you and very shallow. Keep it shut and the club works more up. These are really key fundamentals of Hardy's theories and I have to say he's dead right.

club, i favor the left side at address  more than hogan so i don't have to slide

faktor, the slap hinge allows for more speed than a push release by default and works well with keeping the right elbow back behind the hip. The difficulty is learning out to do it and still compress the ball and hit it lower. The push tends to work the right arm in front of the hip and "push" with the right arm.

Lefty,

back to simple so soon?

In all honesty, I think what Jim Hardy's describing is something which could be engrained fairly easily but it seems so damned complex when you're breaking it all down.

Thanks, as always, for caring, CQ ...

Lefty

I think we must make distinction b/w rotation of club head and rotation of forearms. The club head must be rotated otherwise we can't make any impact. The question is are you rotating the club head by active rotation of forearms or are you doing something different. 

I think you can tell whether you have active rotation of forearms by looking at the club head postion after impact. If there is, then the club head will be more down the target line. Otherwise you will be hooking all day. Jh prefers different way to close the club face. As you come into impact your left elbow moves up and back(gator arms), see what happens to club head. It rotates but did you rotate your arm actively? No. compare to 1st one the arm rotation was very quite. There is no question about that the club head must rotate but there are different ways you can rotate it. Because OP swing is more around JH recomends the second method to close your club face. If you club head travel more down the target line just after impact then you must actively rotate your forearms to squear club head (Erie Else), if you club head travel more around after impact then you don't have to rotate your forearms to square the club head (Chad Campbell).

Release?  I'm supposed to release the club?  Maybe that's what my problem is.   

I'm pretty sure I'm a pusher - I hold my wrist set really late into my swing.

I can get more SS measured on the radar by flipping my arms over, but I can't hit a ball that way.

Would a slap/hinge release that happens just a fraction too early, that is the left wrist start to hinge back just into impact rather than after, be what Chuck talks about in the 'hitting high' ìnstruction video ? If so out of curiosity, how do you hit the ball higher than normal with the other relases ?

Thanks, all in all this topic has been very interesting with lots of great information. Thanks for bringing the stuff up.

eride, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words:

Shouldn't be too hard to figure out which is which here. The top one is obviously the push. The hands take a more directly line to the ball as you "aim" your hands in front of the ball. The hinge slap on the bottom is more of a sweeping motion. I hit a 2 iron here over 240 yards and my left wrist hinged a little early here because I was hitting it hard, but the left wrist is normally flat at impact and rehinges right afterward. I believe TGM'ers would consider this is a "flip" and technically I would agree with them, but there have been a great number of players over the years, more in the past than in the present, who were hinge/slappers. It doesn't rely on leverage or "hitting" as much and gains a great deal of speed by releasing the wrists through impact with speed. Undoubtedly, more difficult to time and consistently control the clubhead from a theoretical standpoint, but it's just like anything else in the golf swing and if it's natural, it's no different. It definitely tends to hit the ball higher with a little less compression and can be more difficult from tight fairways if you aren't comfortable picking the ball clean. A "push" is a more technically sound and correct way to get into impact, but does require an "education" of the hands to get into that position consistently. But, it does conserve energy later into the swing mechanically. When it comes down to it, I've heard the arguments from the TGM'ers calling this a flip and throwaway of the club and I've heard other teachers say they don't really care where your hands are at at impact as long as you're in a good position on the other side when the club is parallel to the ground. Both clearly work, a hinge slap is a natural motion that requires good timing, a push is a trained motion that doesn't require as much timing. The most important thing is clubhead feel and having your hands leading the club through impact. While Hogan indeed appeared to be a pusher, I've got some interesting pictures of him just past impact where the clubhead has appeared to "flip" and get well past his hands with an iron. When it comes to keeping your right elbow back behind your body, it's much easier to hinge/slap, the push requires that you get your right elbow well in front of your hip at impact.

Those are excellent sequences, Chuck.

I think I tend to be more of a pusher and if I concentrated on keeping my hands in front of the ball at impact then this would definitely be the case.

will

The right arm rotating gets the club in front of your body. When you don't do this, that is why you feel you have to flip, because the club is "late" into impact. Ignoring all other factors such as grip, plane, path etc, that would be a reasonable generalization of the misses.

From my studies of students and tour players, rollers have the biggest tendency to miss left with hooks, but if they're late, they can block as well, although I think at the Tour level, it tends toward a hook. The push/hold release favors a fade and I don't think you hardly ever see them miss left as the club is not really releasing, it's more of a body release. I think both are perfectly valid ways to swing the club. I think the push requires more strength, coordination and training of the hands and arms, especially the left, but both. The roller is less demanding on the body and creates a more free wheeling flowing motion to the swing with a follow through that is much more relaxed.

Chuck,

Having read all this great thread I think now I am a hopeless case - I am definitely a pusher (a'la Hogan in impact) with my right elbow a bit stuck near my right hip at impact, my right arm is bent at impact too, and still my pattern shot is a draw. I am working now at more effective hip turn to get rid of draws though.

I am scared to think how big hooks I could hit while I'd be a roller...

BTW, if you have your right elbow stuck near your body at impact and a severe in-to-out downswing path - does it mean that your brain tells your wrist to overrotate in order to compensate a poor hip turn ?

Cheers

My view here is that a good 1PS downswing should be when you have the correct synchronisation of shoulder and forearm rotation. Clearly if you rotate your shoulders hard then you would have less forearm rotation and if you rotated them slower youd have faster forearm rotation

Ive tried both. When I throw my left shoulders hard round I get off balance and dont release well. I tend to push and/or slice. If I rotate more smoothly and actively roll the forearms from the L to L positions I can hit the ball a lot further and straighter. Indeed I find the earlier I rotate them the more I can draw the ball, hold off a bit and I can fade it

Each to their own I guess but I definitely need the forearm roll a la Ernie or Vijay