Over the past several weeks I've found myself going backwards in equipment. It's interesting, but my game has been evolving into something entirely different and it has made me markedly more consistent. In my "younger" days , I hit the ball a long way, even in college I averaged 317 off the tee (at altitude in Denver however). My iron play was good, but never great, but it really didn't matter because the courses I played were pretty much wide open with no trees, so I would just bomb it over everything and hit a wedge in. Lately I've been getting frustrated because I'm hitting my irons so well that I know if I can just have a reasonable shot from the fairway I'm going to have a very good look at birdie almost every time. The problem is that my driver doesn't really fit that sort of game. All my clubs are about control, old school blades are back in the bag and my new 3 wood is one of my favorite clubs of all time and it was designed 25 years ago! My irons are as traditional as they come and are 5 years old. But my driver has the huge bobble head with the super light graphite shaft (65 grams) and I just can't hit it the same. I've gotten so much more focused on precision and placement and this thing just seems to only work best when I step up and whale away on it. It's almost as if the monster size head discourages control and accuracy and requires you swing hard. It just doesn't "feel" or "look" like a precision club to me, for whatever reason, I really like the tiny clubheads as they seem to help me be more accurate and laser like.

I've gotten so enthralled with my 3 wood that I started looking at the ancient Titleist PT woods. If they made a bore through model I'd already have one. I'm very seriously considering switching back to a steel shafted driver, I haven't had one in about 5 years and the one I had was stupidly straight, but cost me a good 5-10 yards. Anyone else experience something similar? I made an eagle with my 3 wood today on a par 5 at my home course. I hit a perfect little butter fade to 4 foot from 227, with my old three wood I wouldn't have near the control to hit that shot and take that much off with precision. I don't know if it's the bigger head, the steel shaft, the bore through, the COG or a combination of all the above but I LOVE this thing!

Chuck,

Have you thought about putting a heavier shaft in the driver?

 I haven't gone back to a steel shaft yet but I did go from a 460 head to a 360 head with a little heavier shaft & all I have to do is look at that thing & it will fade.  I may have given up 7 - 10 yards but so what .

 My problem is I get bored & start working on my draw ( right in the middle of the round)T ball & there goes the fairway.

 My home course has several holes that are really tree-lined very close off the tee & dogleg pretty sharpe left to right....so it's fun trying to draw it(lefty here)......lol

Bird-D, all shafts for woods come in 46" and then are trimmed to fit.  As for what shaft, when it comes to graphite, there are just waaaay too many options out there these days to say. It's ridiculous how many graphite shafts are out there and they're all somewhat different. If the NV worked, stick with it. The NV's that you buy after market were better shafts than what were put in a lot of stock clubs so it may improve it more.

As for helping golfers, if you tried to quantify that technology has helped, I think it would be rather difficult to do so. The handicaps are the same, the number of greens, fairways hit, number of putts, sand saves, etc, they're all the same. So, has it really helped? Sure, golfers may hit the ball a bit further than they used to, but how much so for the average joe? The tour players, yes, you can quantify it, but the average golfer that reflects 98% of the golfing public, I'm not sure they can really say that technology has had as big an impact on their games as it has had on their wallets.

As far as technology goes, I have a little different spin on it. I think the ultra light shafts are one of the main culprits concerning fairways hit not changing over the years.  Those 55-65 gram shafts are just too darn light even for the average Joe. Sure we can swing them faster but that just means we're going to hit that much further offline.  When I switched from a 60 gram shaft to an 83 my consistnacy went way up with no discernable loss of distance.  That young stud in my confessions post had come out with a brand new SMT head on a 65g Grafalloy Proluanch shaft and was wailing it but a bit sporadic. He hit my driver 1/2 a dozen times and hit everyone on a string with no loss of distance. Second to that are the new big a$$ cavity back irons with no feel.  Much harder to improve your game if you can't even feel the ball coming off the face IMHO.

The biggest culprit is not so much technology though. Obvioulsy, I'm preaching to the choir here but it's all about infomration overload and the way our genration thinks.  We don't pul the string of a bow back 1000's of times before we ever let lose an arrow. We pull it a few times, dont do very well then read a bazillion aritcles or watch videos all with different suggestions on how to pull the string and what kind of bow we should have and then just keep repeating that process expecting different results.  I don't feel alone in my mental midgetness

I really can't stand Callaway woods, they are terrible off the shelf for better golfers and their tolerances are really poor. While the bore through is good, the lack of a hosel or a very short one is no good for me. I really prefer a stiff tip and very low torque.

I got something going here. I cruised over to Golfsmith tonight and was able to pick up a 9.5* 983E with a YS-6 shaft ofr $120 because it had a ton of scuffs on the top. After a little buffing, it looks like brand new! Nothing pays like a little elbow grease! Anyway, I bought 2 S300's and 2 X100's and after battling with pulling the old shaft and figuring out how to get a parallel tip S300 into what is apparantly a tapered hosel, I ran out of epoxy! I will epoxy the club together tomorrow. I cut it to 43.5" with no tip trimming on the first run. Swing weight came in at D2 and frequencied at 6.4 (a very stiff Reg flex or very soft Stiff flex). I didn't want to tip trim before trying it out since it will be heavier which will lower my ball flight and the bore through hosel will as well. That's why I bought two, so I can experiment with the tipping. Anyhow, I will report back to everyone how it plays once I glue the thing together.

Chuck,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not poke the hell out of the ball off the box on almost every hole that required driver the day we played Dubs??? What happened between now and then?  That was quite a driving display you put on that day.  Is it simply a matter of not enough days like that?  I hear you loud and clear about the accuracy and precision thing.  That's why I'm seriously considering getting my driver shaft tipped to 44 inches.  I'm hitting it a mile now, but I still get frustrated by control issues with the big stick.  Maybe the shorter length is what I need.  If I lose a few yards so what! 

Bir-D, the V2 75 is a very good shaft.  Very stable.  I have a 115 swing speed with my driver and this shaft works well for me. 

Dean

OP, Isn't it true though, that the "average joe" isn't really playing these longer courses? Sure, there's a bunch of new courses that are well over the 7,000 yard mark, but the majority of courses are still your average length muni. My home course is 6,800 yards and was built back in 1981 and no lengthening has ocurred. Every guy at my club has a brand new Ping G5 and they still can't play.  There are tons of old courses here in Orlando that are still at 6,500 yards, more than there are over 7,000. In fact, our longest public course is 7,400 yards from the tips, but the next tees up cut off about 500 yards total, making it play like a normal old course. It would seem that the "longer course syndrome" really doesn't impact the majority of players, although it certainly must have an impact. But the condition of these courses and quality of the greens and turf in general should make up for the few extra yards to some degree compared to golf 20 or 30 years ago.

Knock,

No, you are correct. But if you remember, by the 4th hole there my left hip was numb and I hit nothing but draws off every tee but two. I've really tried to get more control of my ball flight and not rely on hitting a hard release draw every time and in doing so, a lot of shots now turn into weak wipes. To me, it feels like the clubface is lagging behind too much if I don't really release it and I'm wanting to get away from that for accuracy's sake. Yes, it will definitely cost me yardage, but my iron play has gotten so good I can get by. My new 3 wood feels completely different. The smaller head resists twisting far more than the "bobble head" driver I have (440 cc) and the bore through gives it a really stable feeling, even on mishits. Although, admittedly, the head is so small that I've yet to miss the center by more than an 1/8 of an inch. If nothing else, I certainly focus more with that club! In my secret personal opinion, after seeeing all the super high speed video out there and realizing how violent a collision the driver goes through with the ball at impact and how much twisting and bending occurs before the ball leaves the face, ESPECIALLY on mishits, that I feel the massive heads on drivers and switch to graphite is a big reason not much has really improved on that end of the game. This applies most directly to golfers with higher swing speeds. The graphite shaft can't resist the twisting that occurs at impact nearly as well as steel. As they say, making a low torque graphite shaft is very expensive. But steel is inherently low torque at around 1.5* I believe. To get a graphite shaft with that low torque would cost you about $500 for some exotic Japanese shaft. Anyhow, it's a very worthwhile debate and discussion and will only have a more clear answer with experience, so that's why I'm putting together this test driver and will let you guys know the test results. Your Members Vault dollars in action!

An update, the S300 is 1.7* of torque, which is far and away beyond any graphite shaft easily attainable today.

On a side note, I went back and looked at some super slo mo footage of Tiger Woods at impact close up. It's from the SwingVision camera that you see on CBS. I've seen a lot of tour pros at impact on this camera and marvelled at how much the clubface would deloft or twist for a lot of these guys. Looking at Tiger's, it doesn't move at all. It's the craziest thing I've seen, it looks like the head is attached to a lead pipe. Unfortunately, I can't tell what shaft he had in there, it looks like the Diamana. It was taken at a Buick Open before the Sasquatch, it could have been a steel shaft, I don't know.

What technology was Lord Byron playing in 1945 when he set the season scoring average record that stood for "55" years until El Tigre broke it in 2000? 

Don't most of the pros play heavier shafts in 80-90 gram range?  I think Bob34 makes a valid point about the heavier shafts being more accurate.  I now have the 76 gram V2, up from the 65 gram, and my accuracy is much better. I know the ProForce V2 comes in a Tour Shop grade and the shafts are over 80 grams and cost $130 instead of $70.

I have a knockoff 360cc head from Hireko mounted on a Prolite 35 shaft that was the first driver I made about 3-4 years ago and I ocassionally take it out to the course for a spin and I swear I hit almost every fairway, but lose about 10-15 yards.  Hmmmm?

Chuck,

I have ditched my fairway woods for 16* & 19* hybrids and I can still reach par 5's up to the 535-545 yds. range.  The shafts are shorter than the fairway woods and much, much easier to control with a nice high ballflight for soft landing.

OP,

How about the laminated wood heads and the wood would chip on each side of the face insert from the off center hits?  Hit it on the screws was every golfers dream.

I just checked the UST Tour Shop and reviewed the "Tour Shafts".  The Hybrid Irod shaft goes as high as 110 grams, the Harmon CB shafts go up to 100 grams and the V2 is 85 and 95 grams. 

I guess my question would be, if our steel iron shafts are normally around 115-130 grams, what is the benefit of having a 65 gram driver shaft?  Too light?  The pros are playing much heavier shafts in their drivers.  I don't know.

hayes959,

As the ligher shafts get more and more torque, the pro's have the game to swing faster taking advantage of the lighter shaft and still get back to the ball square. A lot of pro's are using 65g drivers especially at courses where they consider distance more imprtant than accuracy.  But I think, Joe Avg benefits more from a heavier shaft because it promotes a  better swing path and has more torque than the ultra light shafts in the same price range.  Joe Avg isn't going to shell out the dough to buy a 65g with a torque rating less than 2.8.

Another advantage the big boys have is that they swap out shafts depending on the course that week. 

Ok, my report back.

I brought both clubs out to the course today and hit them on the range and the course. Without question, I was more accurate with the steel shafted driver by a large margin. BUT, I can also say that this was most likely due to the weight and little else. My swing felt much more under control and when switching back and forth after every shot, it became very apparent how much "quicker" my tempo was through impact with the graphite shafted club. I made what felt more like a violent "lash" at the ball rather than a smooth acceleration through the ball. This was most likely what made the significant difference in accuracy but it was noticable. One of the guys made a comment that it didn't look like I spun out with the steel shafted club as much, not that I spun out, but even he could tell the swing was quicker. So, with that said, theoretically, I could probably get more speed with the toothpick, but my accuracy was down enough to encourage more testing with steel.

I really didn't feel much of a loss of distance and I really felt like that was due to the S300 feeling a little soft for me at 6.4. I felt like I really couldn't go after it. So, I'm switching to the X100 tonight and will see how that works. Overall, I noticed very little distance loss and the accuracy more than made up for it and the confidence, well - priceless. The feel was much better, and even better, it felt more like my irons and 3 wood so it gave a more consistent feel across the set.

Knock It Stiff,

If you are reading this, I see steel in your future, my friend!

AHHH Man!!!  Now hearing this I might have to try a heavier shaft in my driver.  Chuck why do you do this to me!!!!

Oneplaner, I have a shag bag Use it everyday

My course is only 5, 200 - 5, 500 yards and par 66 because it has no par 5's and last year it held the WALES CLUB PROFESSIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and  -1 after 36 holes won trust me you go 10 yards right or left of the fairway and you ahvent got a chance of going for the green and its hard to make birdies because there is no par 5's.

It doesent matter how much better technology is these days, they just need to make the courses as narrow and as punishing for going off line as mine is

American courses are just way to easy

Ricky,

There are a few courses that I know of here in Orlando where if you go 10-15 yards left or right you are OB!!!!  I love these style courses thats for sure.

yes mines the same waltice. When i go to other courses i feel im hitting at a 500 yard wide field! Its easy playing other courses.

On my course you are either OOB 15 yards left or right or in a PILE of trees where you can only chip out. Unless you ahve the imagination of Seve Ballesteros.

http://www.builthwellsgolf.co.uk/coursemap.php - http://www.builthwellsgolf.co.uk/coursemap.php  the 16th, 13th and 4th are basterd holes on my course. Oh yeah and the 11th par 3, jeeze thats hard. Oh and the 14th! The fairway slopes left, theres like no chance to stop it on the fairway when its real dry.

I'm back with good results. For me, the X100 felt much more controllable and less whippy, although I'd prefer a little less even. It was straighter for me than the S300 and much more so than the graphite. I would really like to tip this thing like an inch and try again, but the max tip with the bore through is only 1/2" to make it 43.5", so I'm kind of stuck as they don't make a stiffer shaft other than the Tour which is tough to get a hold of.

All in all, I haven't felt that in control of a drive in a while, but it did cost me some yardage. I measured it out to be about 10 yards on average, 15 max, which is a fair bit, no question. But, I was launching this higher than I would like to, so I think if I can bring the launch angle down I will be in a very good spot.

OP, basically double the weight for the S300 compared to your graphite, depending on the final trimmed length. I would guess you're in the 115-120 gram range for that club.  Here is a link for the weights

http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp - http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp

Chuck,

I am reading all of this very closely buddy!  This is a great thread.  Funny thing is I went to Secondary's fitter today and all I can say is wow!  I need stiffer, heavier shafts in my clubs.  I went there primarily to test my irons as you know from the Project X Thread in the Club Building Thread.  I'm posting the results of my iron tests in that thread so I will stick to the driver test in this thread.

I"m sold on a much heavier shaft.  I thought the 76 gram Stiff V2 was the shaft for me, but that was until this dude asked me to swing the 96 gram V2.  Holy crap.  I've never felt a driver head more stable through impact!  1st swing and I knew I had struck gold. Furthermore, the heavier weight allowed me to swing smoother and naturally accelerate the club through impact.  No lashing at the ball as I'm prone to do with the driver, right Chuck

After 10 swings with the 96 gram I was hooked.  I'm also going to have my driver tipped at least a half inch to 44.5 inches.  The shorter length with the heavier shaft is the right combo for me. 

It's not quite steel, Chuck, but it's a big step in that direction.

I can't wait to get this done. 

Chuck, I find STOCK shafts in drivers are always slightly whippier than the real good shafts you can buy to PUT INTO your driver. Like I brought the Nike SasQuatch 9.5 stiff stock shaft earlier this week (broke my cobra one remember) and in my cobra I had an aldila 55g stiff shaft. Now in my Nike SasQuatch I have a mitshibushi Diamo (spelt somewhere near that) and its stiff shaft but ses its made for the club, it seems to be slightly whippier than the aldila.

I found the same when I once had a Cleveland 460 fujikura Regular shaft, that thing was also "made for the club" and it felt like a flamin senior shaft in my club!

Do they make these stock shafts whippier or something??

Also Chuck, SasQuatch has a real flat boring trajectory. A SasQuatch with a steel shaft might be good you no! See if you can try it out.

Ricky,

Manufacturers knows their consumers.  See the thing is, most golfers think they need a stiffer shaft than what they really need.  Most OEM's will lable a S Flex shaft but it really will be closer to a R Flex with a soft tip.  Since the majority of golfers need help getting the ball in the air.

Ah ok. I get what you mean.

Should of found a sasquatch with an aldila in it. Oh well.

Knock, that sounds like a great combination for you, you should be much more in control with that shaft. I really, really like the feel and feedback of the steel shaft but I can't get my launch low enough and I can't tip the shaft anymore, so I'm looking at some older heads to bring it down. Older as in this:

That's right, circa 1992. I'm going to put this on the exact same shaft and see how much the trajectory and launch angle is affected solely by the clubhead alone. The 983E is giving me a very high launch and I'm not keen on it, although I'm hitting it stupidly straight.

I love it.  Chuck's going old school on us.  For his next trick, Mr. Quinton will be playing hickory shafts with persimmon heads for his driver and 3-wood  And wait a minute, is that a feathery he's playing as well. 

Seriously, this is a great thread.  I'm glad you started it.  You will be soley responsible for several members on this forum dropping some cash on new shafts, etc..  I don't mind spending the cash as long as I get the right results. 

Chuck, you know what? I am thinking about getting a steel shaft in my nike sasquatch lol! Today I was hitting my mates titliest 3 wood which is fitted with a stiff shaft and you just cant go wrong with it. Its awesome!

Would a stiff steel shaft go well in a 460cc driver? Also how much do you think I would have to pay because I have about £25 pocket money hanging around which im dieing to spend LOL.

My swing speed is 105-110mph with a driver, would a stiff steel shaft be just about right? And whats the difference between the x100 and x300 ?

Cheers,

Rick

Ok, shouldent of posted my last post because 5 minutes ago my coach ses he isnt going to let me put steel shaft in.

the B******D!

Well, I got to play with the 983E with the X100 on a different course today. I played the King and the Bear track at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine today. It's a great course btw, but my purpose here is to report back about using the driver. The simple stat is that I hit 13 of 14 fairways. The fairway I missed was because I was hitting the ball too high and I moved it back in my stance a little and blocked it. I missed the fairway by 2 yards to the right as the hole was a dogleg left. I hit the driver stupidly straight, I mean like, lob wedge straight. Center cut everytime, but there was one huge problem. I was launching the ball so high I was worried about taking out low flying aircraft. It was to the point that my driving average was between 250-270. While I don't believe this has anything to do with the fact that I switched back to steel, it is killing me. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am at least 50% straighter with the driver and my misses are so soft it's like cheating.

I'm blaming the high flight on the clubhead and the lower kickpoint of the X100. TT DG shafts in the irons have a much higher kick point than their wood shaft counterparts, so I'm guessing this is part of it. I'm trying to get my hands on an old PT driver or 975D to see if that changes the launch as I will put the same shaft in it. All in all, no question that for me heavier is the way to go and steel is definitely still in the running.

Chuck, et.al,

Please be reminded of my earlier post about UST having a line of "Tour Shop" shafts with graphite shafts as heavy as 100 grams, including the V2.  There are much heavier graphite shafts available if we seek them out.

hayes959,

Great point. The Accra line by UST also has some pretty hefty shafts with lotsa torque.  Problem is like you said, they're hard to come by for us normal folk. 

Please excuse my ignorance about all of this kind of thing. So what we are saying here is that a heavier shaft is better. But I can't understand why, although I don't doubt it in the least.

I play a Cleveland 3 wood  with a stock, regular flex, 65 gram shaft and a 460 comp with a Graffaloy, Pro Launch 65, stiff shaft. I really have gotten a lot better in the last few months. Right now, when I swing them both thing and do what I know to be right, relaxed hands, turn through and let the club release, I am hitting the mother of all hooks, I cannot keep it thing on the planet

So of course I try to self correct and hold off just a bit, but then I just I hit it right. Every once in a while I will time it correctly and hit straight.

I want to be able to make a controlled aggressive swing and let the club head release true and full with passive hands and arms and not worry about the ball  going left.   

My swing is available in the members vault, not much has changed with it, except my backswing isn't nearly as flat and it is significantly shorter, which has allowed me to be more in sync through to the ball.

I know this was a lot. If anyone has any thoughts. I am all ears.