I've been working hard on one thing in my golf swing for this upcoming year and the word "efficiency" is my mantra. Here's a sneak peek:

More tweaks to come soon...

Good stuff, CQ. I love how nicely you stay over the ball. I have a question: are you deliberately dropping the club down there or do you feel like it's getting there simply from the turn?

Lefty

Beautiful swing - congrats !

One question only: is your club face square at the top ? excuse the amateur, but it seems a bit closed on the picture, especially taking into account your model laid-off position at the top. My question is linked to my constant prejudice that my clubface is much too closed at the top...

Cheers

dariusz,

I would say that my clubface is pretty square at this point, but there is an illusion here that it is closed because of the "laid off look" at the top.

Lefty,

I definitely don't feel a deliberate drop, it's getting down there because of better overall mechanics.

Nuke,

No early wrist set whatsoever as you can see below. I'm not taking the club back as deep because it is a less efficient path to the top of the swing and requires that I rotate overly aggressive on the way down.

Nuke,

You have a good swing but you suffer from a lot of excess moving parts as does almost every amateur. If the pros have one secret it is this: They have more efficient swings. There's no secret moves, in fact, it is the opposite, their secret is that they have FEWER moves. I'm continuing to refine my swing to the simplest motion possible and I'm getting closer. If you go back and watch the videos in the Vault from the past couple of months, there are several regarding swing plane that will help you refine the overall movements and take out a lot the extra moves in your swing.

That's funny, CQ, because Steve Bann, who coaches Stuey Appleby, once told me that the secret to the golf swing is "If it doesn't need to move, don't move it". I actually feel like you look in this sequence when I'm hitting into a firm right side. It's a distinctly different feeling than swinging aggressively with a hard body rotation.

Lefty

I was, as you know, using Hardy's swing - I naturally want to be aggressive into the ball, so it fit in that sense - but I started to think it was taking a toll on my body. Admittedly, I was overcooking the aggression once I discovered he wanted the arms thrown around the turning body. But after feeling back spasms, I moved to the more low-impact swinging into a firm right side. Had a handful of nice rounds but then two weeks ago, out of the blue, I started half-shanking/blocking/slicing everything. I felt like I was spinning and I just couldn't stop. I think I hit a combined two fairways and two greens. If I wasn't chipping and putting my a$$ off I could've shot 90. Anyway, no fun. Near the end of that second round, I went back to Hardy's swing and all was well. I've had three solid ball-striking rounds since.

Lefty

randini, ball flight is straight to a slight draw.

Lefty, I think Ricky has you there.

This is where I get into trouble.  I am a big, strong guy and much more flexible with balance and stability now that I am a faithful practioner of the Core Performance for Golf program.

Seriously.  I get into trouble from the top of the backswing back to the ball.  I tend to fire everything left at 500 mph and all heck breaks loose.  when I tone it down and smooth it out, I hit great shots.  But then, because I am hitting great shots, I tend to start overdoing it again. 

This is a good discussion.  Limit the moving parts and simplify.  Thanks, Chuck. 

By the way chuck in my opinion your swing looks the best it has since ive been on here!

From face on it just looks really really really nice!! Very simple indeed!

Chuck,

  Very nice swing.

  Question for you concerning your right knee position at impact:  If you look at the face-on view, the knee position in the next frame after impact, when you're parallel to the ground with the club on follow through, that's the position that I've been taught over the years to try to get into at impact.  Of course, I'm asking because my knee position looks pretty similar to yours.  And, of course, despite my best efforts I can't seem to rotate it enough to get to the specified position.  So, the two-part question is:  Is the the knee where you want it?  Is the knee generically  less rotated in the 1PS than in the 2PS of many tour pros at impact? 

Willrob,

You're one of the most astute and observant people on this forum when it comes to noticing important details in the swing, hands down. You're absolutely correct about the right elbow and it's going to get even further in front in the very near future.

rayvil,

I don't like where my right knee is in that frame, my hips are more open than I'd like for them to be at this point in the swing. I have a lot of body rotation and a lot of body speed that has put a lot of stress on my weakened left hip (two car accidents). I'm working to keep that part of my body more quiet so that my left hip isn't taking such a blow on each shot. Here's a better model position:

flyfishin,

No. My shaft is too steep at the top, my arms are too deep, the arms are behind the body, and my body is too open at impact, just to name a few!  You can see below, I'd be kicked out of the Haney golf school with a failing grade.

Firstly, Ricky alleging I have 10 swings is simply beyond my ken. I have no response other than to say the kid's got some chutzpah.

Secondly, CQ, your own swing/release has changed/evolved, as it should. I don't feel I particularly need to defend myself but, as I've said, I spent six months on Jim Hardy's swing and, it turns out, I wasn't doing it correctly (ie, passive arms and hands).

I then did it correctly and I hit the ball really powerfully etc but there was a durability issue which worried me. The actual swing worked, and worked well. I decided to switch to something which was a bit lower-impact on the body, not for better ball-striking. For whatever reason, that swing fell apart and, in depseration, I went back to Hardy's swing, which I never struggled with. I've played with it for four rounds and it's been good. That said, my initial concern - that it's very hard on the body - remains, so that is my dilemma, not switching to one plane one week and going to two plane the next week, Ricky.

Lefty

ragtop, don't worry, I spent two hours at Bed Bath and Beyond last weekend with my wife. Picked up the *NEW* Foreman grill and the "Scooba" to mop the floors. We've nicknamed him "Scooba Steve".

My swing is changing but it has nothing to do with what's better and what's not. I have been in two car accidents, both times I was rear ended. The first car hit me doing 65 while I was sitting still in a Ford Escort (destroyed, as you might imagine) and the second one was last year where I was rear ended by a 25,000 pound dump truck, again, sitting still in a small car. Both times, I had the clutch pushed in with my left leg and both times my left leg was crammed up into my hip socket. After the first accident, my left leg was 3/4" shorter than my right. My hip pops, all the time, in the middle of my backswing, when I'm walking, sitting, etc. and so does my knee. I tore my meniscus in the first accident and that pesky thing still bothers me. Anyway, after playing golf like this for a 15 years, the repetitive pattern has continued to wear out my hip to the point that I've been told I should consider a hip replacement by my doctor. I turn 30 next month, so come hell or high water, I'm keeping all my original pieces atleast until after that birthday!

Anyhow, (Hey look, I inserted a paragraph!) I started wanting to learn more about Haney's theory earlier this year upon getting my hands on the footage of Tiger working with Haney at his studio - the same video I posted for you guys in the vault. I saw this as a valid two plane model and wanted to learn more about it. The two plane model I teach is different from Hardy's, I learned it from Adrian Wadey, who learned it from Robert Baker, who worked under Leadbetter. This is from a good 10 years back, so it's different than what Lead teaches today, whatever that is, and it works really well. I know for a fact that not everyone can swing the way Hardy suggests as a one plane and so does he. I've always felt the one plane model I devised is much more neutral while still using many of the same fundamentals. It allows anyone of any athletic ability to have a productive, low maintenance, one plane swing. But what about those natural two planers out there?

Hardy's two plane model, atleast what he has laid out in the book is super old school and I don't know anyone in the modern game that swings like that or anyone that teaches it, except for maybe Flick and guys from that school of thought. But what about Haney? What's his swing all about? What about the Appleby's, Woods, Els', and Immelman's of the world? These guys swing more around but end up with their arms in front of their bodies at impact. Their swings are not nearly as deep as what Hardy suggests, they end up on "one plane" or close to it at the top, but then their arms work back out and they have a lot of width, not to mention power. Their swings are more consistently on plane, no excessively over the top or deep moves. They don't rely on excessive body rotation on the way down, they end up more square at impact and keep their shoulders closed until late in the downswing which is very two plane. So, are they hybrids? I don't care for that term at all because I don't think Hardy is the father of the golf swing and his models are just that, models. Since 90% of the golfers on tour would fall into his "hybrid" category, that's sort of a useless moniker. I refer to it as the "modern swing". It is a flatter, more round swing with the fewest moving parts possible. It depends on keeping many things quiet and stable while moving the club efficiently and it more accurately defines the majority of Tour players out there today. More tour players end up like this than any other definition. They definitely have a lot of two plane traits, but they certainly don't swing like Watson or Payne Stewart. They have rhythm, but speed and power as well. They're more two plane at the top then one, but not excessively so like a Colin Montgomerie.

Long story short, I'm developing a "two plane" model that fits today's game. For me personally, I can either learn a swing that doesn't place so much stress on my left hip and knee because of the amount of rotation through impact or I can expect to quit playing in a couple years. If I had my dithers about it, I wouldn't change a thing about my swing. But physically, I don't feel I have a choice. I've visited with 3 different specialists about my hip and never once did I hear what I wanted, so here we go, after 15 years, a new chapter in my golf life...

 Hey Chuck, are you a little more "toe up" at ground/parallel with this swing? Looks like it. Any comments?

 thanks

randini,

Yes. More forearm rotation is required to keep the shaft working up the plane and around. At the top, I'm working on getting in a more on plane position that will also require more forearm rotation, this has been one of the most interesting parts of the swing for me, a distinct difference from keeping things quiet on the way back, but this rotation will help the shaft stay on plane at the top.

 So, a person could be in a more toe up with the rotation, and still arrive at the top with shoulders & arm basically on the same plane ?     I suppose?

 And I suppose this just requires rotation coming back down. Might be a little less hard on my body too. When My clubface is more toe down or square to arc, If I don't turn "fast", I hit  kinda the smothered shot.

 Make sense?

 thanks

Hey, I got Her Indoors the "new" George Foreman grill for Mothers Day. We both laughed and, yeah, for the sake of continuing a happy marriage, I got her other stuff, too. But - don't laugh - she cooked steak in it the other night and it was really good!

CQ, I played soccer and tennis at a fairly high level and blew out both knees. I was never again the same player, so I empathize with what you're going through. That said, in my view Tiger's swing is no easier on the body than a core driven 1PS swing and that excessive forearm rotation can get people into trouble. Immelman sets up feet closed, shoulders open and misses more fairways to the right than anyone on the PGA Tour (a fact). I suppose my point is that there's no panacea. You try to find something that works and you can repeat.

Dave, the reason the Hardy swing is a go-to swing for me is that, as CQ says, you can go hard at it from the top. Not a lot to think about. Under pressure, I'm the sort of player who hits the hard 6 iron instead of the cut 5.

Randini, I like the toe-up a little, too, as you say, it helps eliminate the smother.

Lefty

Try this easy cut shot:

Set the clubface to face the target before you take your grip.  Then open your body to the target line paying close attention that you do not alter your grip, it will feel like the club face is open.  IT IS!  You have to aim your body more to the left than you think, as well.  Then make your normal swing down the line of your body.  You will not have altered anything in your swing, except the grip, and you will hit nice fade.  A little range time is needed to find out just how much of a fade you can hit, and how far it will fly.  And make sure to keep your swing mechanics as close to normal as possible.  IF you over rotate the clubface you will pull the ball, under rotate and your fade turns into a slice.

OOOPS.  I wrote that you should aim your body to the right when what I meant to say was to the left, sorry!  I have changed the post to what it should have been.

I don't mean to be a smarta$$ but why is this thread in the one plane swing forum when it's more about 2 plane? Or is it more 1 plane?  Or is it just a 'modern swing'? Is this just something you're working on Chuck for yourself or is this something you're teaching or going to teach because it's more efficient? I'm confused....

-Bob

The thing I'm taking away from this discussion is that there are fundamentals...impact position is still impact position.  But, there's plenty of room for variation within the framework of various swing models.  What's important is to find your swing that gets you to proper impact.   With 90% of the Tour players falling into some "Hybrid" category, there's plenty of affirmation that there's room for individuality.

I still watch film of Bobby Jones and that swing of his that would send many modern teaching pros into siezures.  Dude could play...could hit Hickory shafts a gutta-percha ball 275.    It'd be fun to see him with modern gear.  It's pure speculation, but I bet he'd do well.

Get correct at impact, but own your swing...it seems like a good mantra. 

rayvil, impact is different for the two swings though, that is key because all the fundamentals of the two swings are there to help you achieve the proper impact for that swing. For instance, getting your arms as far behind your body as you can in a one plane basically ensures that you will hit a foot behind the ball at impact when coupled with a two plane downswing. But, couple this with a lot of body rotation and poof, you hit the little ball first. Impact is impact, but there are different impacts when it comes to the position the body is in and the relationship of the club to the body.

Bob, my swing in this sequence taken yesterday is definitely still one plane so it fits in this category, we just sort of got a little off topic in a way. Thank Willrob for that, he's the one that pointed out the right elbow.

Bob34’s got a point.

Hey Chuck, isn’t it time to rename the website to http://www.ChuckQuinton.com? - www.ChuckQuinton.com?  

If not, why not?

wilrob,

It was a great catch... You shouldn't apologize. Personally, I became confused by Chuck's mention of seeing the elbow more in front in the future so I wasn't sure... Maybe it's more 1ps now but moving towards more 2 plane...? I'm not quite sure but then again, I see very little difference between the pic of Chuck and  Tiger other than Chuck's left wrist is a bit more cupped at the top which gets his club steeper. I don't see any difference in the 'deepness' of the swing at the top.   So I guess I'm just easily confused...

Regards,

Bob

Chuck,

I think I know what you mean about different impacts for the different swings.  The 1PS impact feels very open and almost like you are spinning out of the shot (at least it does to me).  With a more 2PS impact--where the chest smothers the ball and the arms rotate in front of the body while the shoulders stay basically square to slightly open at impact--it feels very on top of the ball (again at least to me).  Leadbetter is always talking about smothering the ball with your chest.  I kinda like that feeling.  Tiger always says that when he's swinging really well he feels his arms rotate in front of him through impact and that the arm and body rotation are in perfect sync. 

Is this what you mean by different impact sensations/positions?  I, too, have adjusted my swing to take stress off my back from getting too aggressive with body rotation.  I really like Immelman's swing.  I'm kinda using his swing as my model and trying to fit it to my own body and swing dynamics.  Like I said in another post--I want a swing that I can feel and trust when I play. 

I just thought I'd share this - and can't be bothered starting a new thread - and I don't think it matters whether you're swinging on 1 plane, multiple planes or fractions thereof, it sort of rung true to me.

From Greg Norman: "The best ball flight in golf is a power fade. A draw-type swing with the face a shade open at impact. My whole career I aimed at the left edge of the rough and swung as hard as I could. I never worried about the ball going left. I've had my problems, but driving the ball long and straight has never been one of them."

Lefty

And, CQ, I agree Tiger looks great when he's hitting those 100 yard shots with a 3/4 pw. That, though, is the rarity. Haney, I have no doubt, has changed his swing model - or Tiger's changed it for him - and it's now hands and arms far above the shoulder plane and various other two plane characteristics. As for the model, I've played around with it at the range to get the feel of it and it's nice. Hits a nice little draw. One last thing about Hardy's swing, the genius of it is the firm, holding forearm/wrist/hand keeping the clubface square to the swing arc. The rest is just window dressing.

outaline,

yes, the pause definitely fits within this model, although it's not necessary.

Lefty,

The slight fade with Haney's swing is the easiest shot to hit because of the amount of forearm rotation, it's easier to have the face not come quite back to square at impact. You said you "messed around" with Haney's model on the range? I'd love to see video of that. It's taken me two weeks of intense video work to even a slight resemblance of his model.