Some posts made by Jim Hardy on his forum lately have started me thinking about whether there can't be a mixing of fundamentals within the 1PS community.

Specifically, Hardy sees the 1PS as swinging the arms while rotating the body. At first I was quite confused by the "activeness" of the arms in his swing but then I started to realize that I had been actively using my arms on the backswing (taking the hands over the back foot, sliding the arms up and back behind me) but disengaging them all together on the way down.

After closely observing my own swing, I see that the hands can leave the "inner circle" on the downswing and swing more in-to-out if left too passive. I'm wondering whether if you are going to rely on body rotation and passive arms, as CQ teaches, it's necessary to be (a) more upright and (b) bring the club back a little straighter and not so much to the inside? In other words, not mix fundamentals.

I'd be interested in any views on these observations.

Lefty

I swing very much like this! I turn like the one plane swing but swinging my arms alot too. In my takeaway I feel very much I use just my arms but i turn at the same time which makes my arms more closer to my body. Although my swing looks very much similar to the 2 plane swing with the left arm higher than the shoulder plane, To me it feels very one plane because I feel im turning alot more than what a 2 planer does.

It makes ur arms very active on the DS tho, VEry annoying sometimes!

Just read some things on the "secret downswing move" thread on jims forum. And this is exactly what i need to do. Ill do it over time because i have alot of competitions coming up. But he ses he doesent mind people throwing there arms, OK! NOT LIKE SOME THROWING ARMS RIGHT HAND SWATTING ACTION but only as long as there turnign there torso hard through the ball.

Now, BEcause I swing my arms while turning the body my swing is quite armsy. I not gona chnage it because it feels natural and doesent really course me problems BUT when it does i hit pulls and cuts. The reason? because I dont turn my torso hard enough in the DS so my arms get to fast for the body.

WAY HAY! thanks for comign upon that post WOOHOO! So I dotn need to work on stoping using my arms to much in the DS all i have to do is Turn my hips torso harder in the DS.

WICKED! I wotn try it in my comp tommrow tho because im playing well, ill start trying that on the range if my form starts to dip.

RickMAN!

PLUS! that makes my swing perfect! Now i know that, I know every single little thing what goes wrong with ym swing if im on bad form. And If i get that right that means there wont be 1 thing wrong with my swing. Thats the only thing worng with. Thats given me even more confidence to just go out there and swign natural for the rest of the summer. Im going out there and swigning natural now anyway, but now i can do it with CONFIDENCE!

HAHA, im gona kick ass tommoz!

rick

Lefty,

The simple truth of the matter is that passive arms is a bit of a misnomer. Everyone's arms do something, it just may not feel like much. Hardy's one plane swing focuses on the arms and they very actively work around and release aggressively, which is very difficult for the average golfer. If you go back and read his book right from the intro, he stressed how much more athletic the swing was. Of course, since the popularity of the swing has taken off, he's changed his tune, but in his book he made very strong statements about how much more athletically demanding the swing was. The average golfer, 20 hdcp or so, simply doesn't have the time, and some, the necessary coordination, to get all the parts working correctly. When I work with better golfers I focus on a lot more specifics as you can see from my recent discussion and video of my own swing in the Members Vault. Focusing on this with the average golfer just doesn't fly, they need a basic swinging motion first that is far simpler to learn and not as demanding, which is what I offer. When I work with my professionals, strong amateurs and my own swing, the story is a different one.

BTW Lefty,

I'd be cautious about taking Jim Hardy's advice seriously from the forum, only if it doesn't apply to you.  I.e. the secret downswing move involving throwing the arm to the left, I didn't bother trying it... but it may work for others.  He has so many different swingers visiting the forum, asking if a "square" grip is permissible than the strong grip with the one plane swing, or any other slight deviations from the one-plane swing fundamentals.  By the time you take in all those advice, you will probably be so far from the one-plane swing.

Me, I get all the help I need from Jim Hardy's book.  I may not even want to buy his 2nd book since I'm hitting the ball much better with the one-plane swing.

One Planer has never claimed there are passive arms. And reading inbetween the lines of Chuck's post, he doesn't either.

No dis respect to oneplaner but is he an instructor? I thought he was just a weekend golfer!

Ricky,

I'd take Uno's knowledge of the golf swing over just about every instructor I've ever wasted my time with (not many, admittedly, but you get my drift).

For the rest of you, thanks for your views; it's a very interesting subject I think and one that I've largely overlooked or not thought about much. Maybe I'm reaching for things that aren't there - well, at least not in my swing - but I think I'm into something with the inner circle stuff.

There's no question in my mind that I execute the swing better when I take the hands over the back foot, then slide the arms up and back and then come back ensuring the hands stay inside Hardy's inner circle. Of course, the byproduct of this is keeping the back elbow at the back hip at impact, so perhaps it's just another way of ensuring that this key move happens?

CQ, I understand completely and I don't mean to imply you're a one-trick pony at all. In fact, if anything, I'd wish the turn-turn with passive arms was the answer because I find it a hell of a lot easier to perform. That said, the arms have a role to play and I understand now why Jim Hardy said this swing's athletic. I wouldn't, however, have used the term "athletic", which is what confused me when I first read it. Something more like, "naturally co-ordinated", I think is closer to what he means.

Anyway, interesting stuff.

Lefty

Uno,

I think we can both concede that tour players are so talented they make whatever they've got work, rather than having the faultless swing and merely executing it. (see: Eldrick Woods when that right elbow gets waaaay past the hip at impact).

As for ballstriking, when I actively stay within Hardy's inner circle it's really powerful, usually a tight draw. Short, compact and serious compression are words which come to mind. There is no doubt my hands feel engaged (not in a manipulative way, if you can understand that, but involved).

I feel looser and longer when I try for a "rotate the body" swing with really passive arms and the hands doing no more than holding the club. The ball goes nicely, too, with great lag but I suppose it's apples and oranges.

I suppose I feel less can go wrong with the "inner circle" stuff.

Lefty

Sorry no disrespect just thought about why he was usin you as a person to kind of instruct people. You know what I mean! Amatuer coaching amatuer never works, So my coach ses

Well I nto changing nothign in my swing AT ALL, Its the best ever, I think I am very much a hybrid swinger. All  im saying is that if the arms throwing at the top of my swing starts causing me problems I then will have to do something about it and maybe have to turn my torso alot faster through the ball. To be honest i dotn care anymore. I know ive got the talent to get on tour and so does my coach graham and Kevin carpentar from celtic manor (head coach there) Graham ses he promises he will get me on tour.

The reason im on this site playing with my swing alot is im PREPARING for a professional career. Dont care if I never enter the british amatuer championship, dont care if I never win a amatuer competition again. As long as im at the standerd to be playing in qualifyign school by the age of 21!

Ian Poulter, Paul Lawrie didnt have special amatuar careers at all, didnt win british amatuer, didnt enter all this walker cup stuff. Lawrie actually turned pro with a handicap of 4 and 6 or so years later won the british open.

I dont give a crap about these big amatuer events. And thats why i didnt get it when people said michele wie wasent ready to  turn pro because she hadent won any major amatuer events. Its a load of crap!

Lefty,

I enjoy reading your posts just as much as One Planer's.  OP without a doubt has the most sound knowledge of the OPS out of all of us forum members--in my opinion.  I assume you play at a high level as well OP.  Your advice is logical and presented in a very clear manner.  I appreciate your insight into the swing.

I truly believe the most important thing to a tight and connected 1PS is the connection of the left arm to the left peck--specifically the lower portion of the left peck (for righties). For months and months I have struggled doing the headcover drill while hitting balls, and it finally dawned on me that my left arm was not staying connected.  Old habits die hard as they say, and I was clearly lifting and disconnecting my arms to the point where my left arm was sliding too high up my left peck. 

Try rotating hard from the top when your lead arm has disconnected and crept a bit too high and you are generally over the top and steep (that's been me).  However, keep that left arm snug to the lower portion of the left peck (from the start of the swing) and then rotate the core left and the club has no choice but to be whipped through impact--as long as you maintain your spine angle. The right elbow up and behind at impact is a result of the hard rotation left and the arms being dragged through--I don't try and keep my elbow up and back.  It just ends up there!

I also like tugging my shirt sleeve into my armpit (as One Planer and Hayes have discussed) when I practice.  If the shirt sleeve starts to creep out during my swing I feel it and will stop the swing because I know I've started to lift my arms and lose connection.  I start again and focus on my connection. 

My swing feels so short--but it's really not.  It's just compact with no wasted movements.  Feel vs. real!  I can hit balls with the headcover drill now, and it's only because I'm truly connected.  When my swing gets loose and long the headcover falls out at the top of my backswing or even halfway back. 

Lefty, you are obviously a very talented golfer.  Go with what works, man.  If tight and compact with the hands tracing the inner circle gives you the nice ball flight you want then stick with it.  Take it from another "tinkerer."   

Dean

First off, Ricky. Please don't disrespect members on this forum. You say a lot of stuff that is tolerated here, but less than desirable and everyone cuts you some slack. In regards to OnePlaner, you have no idea what you are talking about. No, he's not a professional, but he is a SUPERB ball striker who I have taught personally and you would be very lucky to hit the ball with as much compression and consistency as he does. As for his knowledge and overall understanding of the golf swing, in my opinion, he knows as much as any member here and you'd be wise beyond your years to listen very carefully to what he has to offer in the way of advice.

Second, the arms - can they really be passive. The answer - absolutely. Obviously, they are swinging up on plane and around your body, but they need not be the star of the show. Regarding the downswing and the inner circle - that is exactly HOW they get there. If your arms aren't passive at the top they have to be "pulled" down on plane which ends up in them being either in front of your hip and out over the top of the plane. The best secret that every great ball striker knows - the arms are passive during the transition which gives them time to fall down on plane and lets the swing "sort itself out" before coming into impact. Once they fall down on plane they are still behind you, and if you are rotating aggressively, guess where they end up, in your right pocket. Keep turning and do nothing with them they work beautifully on Hardy's inner circle without conscious effort.

Lefty, video tape your swing, scrounge together the $15 and post it in the Members Vault. I'm pretty sure you would find the answers you are looking for.

I didnt disrespect him! I know one planer has good understanding on the golf swing! Its just in my opinion Amatuer teaching Amatuer doesent work! But hey it happens in every golf forum on the planet so what can I do about it!

I still always think the flow and rythum drill is the best drill in the world! Plus the right foot back drill! I think in the flow and rythum drill you use the same amount of arms and turn in your swing, which is obviously why it makes the swing look so flowing and good rythum because everything is working together. arms are passive and everything!

Ive got abit of a Davis LOve routine, Ive done it since i found the rythum and flow drill, I step behind the ball (at the moment when im behind the ball I swing doing the right foot back drill just to somehow get in my brain not to come over the plane with arms in the downswing) and I pick otu a spot 3ft after the ball. I then step up to the side of the ball like davis love do the rythum and flow drill swing once, Flow into my adress position, do a flowing practice takeaway (although i not worrying where the clubhead is when im doing the practice takeaway its just to keep the club moving) and then just place the club down and swing straight away really feeling everythign is natural and flowing together do a nice flowing swing and the arms feel passive in the downswing.

This helps me keep all my body synchronized and the arms passve (spelling, actually i think i mihgt of spelled something correctly)

I never stop moving from once i take the club out of the bag. I thought i would say this because I think it would help with using the right amount of arms and body in the swing because your flowing and it really helps keeping the arms flowing intime with the body and passive! Does anyone know what i mean? Im crap at explaining things but I hope you understand me!

Ricky,

You need to get a "spell checker" on your computer.

OP,

I think it doesn't get talked about enough that this swing DOES require more athleticism without question. In order for the golfer not to actively use his arms, he needs a lot more speed with his body and that body speed takes muscle to generate and stabilize the entire movement. Hardy stuck to his guns about this for 20+ years and then also said the same multiple times in his book. A perfect example of this is Rod Pampling this week. I have studied his swing for several years and it is very powerful with a great deal of body speed and arm speed. I think his overall tempo is just about perfect for a one plane swing, which is fairly quick. You are relying on a lot of dynamic tension in the big muscles and it's like stretching one of those really thick rubber bands vs. stretching a skinny one. With the thick one, you need to really quickly and aggressively stretch it to store energy which it will then quickly release. The skinny one can be stretched slowly but then doesn't have the recoil like the thick one. The one plane swing is like the thick rubber band - fast and aggressive and always in motion.

The term "passive" is definetly being misused and misunderstood at this point by some. They have to swing up and behind properly. If they do that, I can assure you they need do very little to nothing on the way down. End up in the wrong spot on the way back and at the top and yes, you can hit horrible shots. If you are having to make manipulations on the way down, you didn't put yourself in a position at the top that allows you do unwind while doing nothing. Most everyone I teach thinks their backswing and top of swing position is way better than it really is, but almost all make significant deviations from the fundamentals, whether it be swaying off the ball (very common), rolling their wrists early in the takeaway (even more common), getting across the line at the top (super common) or swinging too long (way too common) etc. Master the fundamentals and you're well on your way to learning how to take your arms and hands out of the swing and taking that timing out of the equation.

Keep in mind also that most golfers are way overactive with their arms throughout the swing, particularly during the transition, so that is another part of the reason why I emphasize keeping the arms passive. If you don't have a problem with the arms taking over the body, then you can do whatever you want with them, but I see the opposite in 9 out of every 10 golfers every day.

Look what I started! Very cool thread, I think, and I thank you all for contributing.

Anyway, I want to stress this: I'm honestly trying to forget about theory in my own swing. I'm happy to discuss it with others in this forum because it's fun and interesting to me. But the real ephiphany I've had over the past six months - and this is entirely due to you, CQ, so I'm in your debt  - has been to just find a swing (not perfect, not the most aesthetic but just a fairly repeatable one) and stick with it.

My tinkering is very, very minor compared to what it was - ie, the reality of "passive" arms as discussed here. This has been somewhat confusing to me in the past because I felt I may have been doing something "wrong" and I was intrigued by Jim Hardy's description of the swing as one in which the arms swing around a rotating body. This, actually, is more what I feel and, more importantly, it gets me through the shot much cleaner. But I wondered whether it was "right". (I'm still working on purging myself of the notion of there being one secret, magical way to swing a club!)

Of course, if you feel it and the shot's good, then it is right!

It's been a really rewarding journey. I've resisted all temptation to revert to my former self - the guy lost in the search for the perfect swing - and concentrated on hitting the ball somewhere out on the fairway and somewhere on the green and take it from there. I know I have a good swing. If it's somewhat off, I just try to exaggerate somewhat the fundamentals. ie, I'll turn my shoulders a little steeper or really concentrate on staying centred (my two tendencies).

The real change, though, has been my improved consistency. The back-to-back 70-86 rounds are long gone. My scores float around the low to mid 70s and some days I shoot better but - and here's the real epiphany - when I do, I don't feel like I'm hitting it that much better.

The other day I hit a shot into a green with a pw and thought it was very average and yet it was 12 feet away. Nothing wrong with that. I honestly used to think if it wasn't inside 6 feet with a wedge, it was a bad shot. Of course, I wouldn't ever make the putt because I was still badgering myself about what went wrong with the iron shot! Or, put another way, when I'd hit it tight with a great shot and miss the putt, I wasn't that upset because it was a great shot and I basked in that. Now, I try to put a 3 on the card. A monumental change in outlook.

Even though I rarely practice at all, my short game has improved a ton since I've stopped obsessing about the perfect swing. Putting, as always, comes and goes. But I've come to a peace with this, too: I can hit a good putt but it won't go in and I can mis-read/mis-hit a putt and it does go in. I am determined, however, to make myself a better putter, I just don't get too down on myself when I miss.

Anyway, I suppose the irony in all of this is that I'm a better golfer without being a better golfer, if you get what I mean.

Fairways and Greens,

Lefty

Chuck/OP,

The thick rubber band analogy is awesome!  That's what I feel like when I'm hitting the ball great.  I feel like my left hip (I'm a righty) gets snapped behind me and the upper torso, arms and club just follow along.  It's not a violent snap--rather a controlled yet aggressive snap.  Rod Pampling is a great example of this.  He looks like he's swing so fast, yet it's completely under control.  It's just a great example of a golfer who builds up tremendous coil and then unleashes the coil in control and in balance but with tremendous energy.

Dean

Well, My backup if i dont do well in golf is that i will go to a Golf College get qualifitcations with like a club pro, or coach and do that.

If im a club pro and get paid £20,000 a year (whcih is around what they get i think?) I will be a happy man. I know clubpro isnt for alot of people, stuuck in shop. But I wouldent care because im around golf clubs! I can do some coaching! and ill be happy!

The man who said about putting is very important and 100 yards and in. I cant agree more, I practice my putting around 1 hour a day. Although I wouldent think it the way I putted today! I played in my first comp of the year today and it didnt turn out great! The best gross score in the comop was +9 It was cold and windy! I shot +11 OUCH!! My ball strikin was just AWESOME! I hit alor of greens but couldent make a putt! and the greens i missed i couldent get up and down! Mainly because i was finding myself in divots and wet mud all dayPlus I hit a great drive on 13 and then absolutely ripped a 3 wood but the wind changed in mid air and ended up 15 yards left of green in the pond! an 8 on that hole UH HUM! So if my putting was better and diddnt make that stupid 8 thats down to a 2-3 handicap! Say then it was better conditions! Easily under par!

And when I was on about flowign into all ym shots, Nick O'Hern is probably the best at this, He has great flow to his swing and pre shot routine!

CQ,

Funny you should mention Pampling because he's one of Gary Edwin's many Aussie disciples. The swing Edwin teaches is about as simple as it gets and is predicated on very quiet legs, no sway on the backswing and hard rotation of the upper body. Interestingly, this got Peter Lonard - who took this to heart to such an extent he actually "locked" his kneecaps - into the top 20 or so in the world at which point he left Edwin a year or so ago to get "better". That's Lead-better. Lonard's missing cuts with the best of 'em now.

Lefty

People are probably going to say, Step out into the real world you need lots of money these days, but id be happy with 20,000 pound a year no problem. Id be involved in a job I love!

Just like to say why did you say this I don't want to discourage you, but the odds are not in your favor. Can i ask, Have you ever seen me play? no, Does my handicap matter, No Your handicap never ses how much talent you have (poulter turned pro on a 4 handicap, Paul Lawrie turned pro on a 4 handicap, Lawrie or poulter had NONE succesful amatuer careers AT ALL! they didnt play bug all competitive golf, because they felt they needed to Prepare for pro golf by practicing, also i think all these people who think you need to be playin in british amatuer championships or playing national level are speaking crap. I played with a 15 year old welsh team player yesterday when i was playing for my county. He was totally SHIT! absolutely SHOCKING! ive played with many welsh international junior players and I have as much game or even better game than them! Im afriad to say but because wales is such a small country there is ALOT! of favouritism!)

Thats just really annoyed me now !!!

I am very much like nicklaus and tom, Ive got no interest in school! I have good grades in school but hardly try! Thats why after june I wont be in school (u can leave school at 16 in britain) I wont be 16 till august! My plan then is to just practice, practice and practice. Play on the Elite Pro tour next year! And work my way up! Also in britain once your over 21 you can go to university for free as a mature student and get a degree!

Plus the reasing poulter didnt get into national team and stuff, Was because he didnt want too, but also because people didnt like him! Why? Because he said what he thought without care! and had a unique style!

I think maybe you lot should stop judging my golf game and me in person, by listenin to me on a golf forum! Come and play with me in wales this summer and see me yourself you may be suprised i come across a very different person and may be suprised with my game.

Cheerio!

 oneplaner: If your fallback plan is to be a club professional, you'll need to have outstanding people skills and excellent communication skills to go with your golf game.

who ses u need a GREAT game to be a club pro! ive beatin my club pro on a few occasions!

cant understand people who judge people over the internet! its like coachign over the internet, its hard, cant see ball flight, Maybe not the same swign as normal because your swinging in the garden!

Same as with a person, Cant see them, cant see what there personailty is like, Dont know there communicating skills nor people skills HAHAHAHAHA.

HAHA ok ill stop being a pain in the ass as logn as you lot beleive in me and encourage me instead of saying confidence destroying sentences like " very unlikly u will become a tour pro" maybe it is, but i bet you people said that too a number of young players who are now tour players. So actually dont stop sayign stuff like that because it will just make u even more suprised when i come on this website in 7 years and say " Hay guys, I proved you wrong and I have got my European Tour Card!

HEHE, Plus I wouldent wna be an english teacher because they have smelly breaths

Fellas, fellas, fellas ... Ricky is 15. He averages eight posts a day though mostly he needs but, say, far less than an eighth of that number to adequately communicate what it is he has to say. Beyond all of that, I fear we are holding him to standards we'd apply to ourselves.

Lefty

Ricky,

The written language is a form of COMMUNICATION so I can judge what your communication skills are like.  Also, if you are anything like the sentiments in the way you write/post on this forum,  my judgment would be that I would not choose to be around you for very long.   If you came on here in your volumous posting asking questions and then actually being quiet long enough to respectfully get the answers, it would be one thing. Yet, young Ricky, you come across as little more than an attention hungry teenager who has a computer and too much time on his hands. 

I for one have been extremely patient with your rambling style of disrespect and attention seeking.  It would be nice if you would just be quiet for a little while and read rather than feel the need to post some type of response in practically every thread on the forum.  Like Arbano, I'm going to ask you to stop being such a pain in the ass but, I'm not going to put a "smiley" on it because I am not playing.