Alas, the final frontier, the discussion on the arms in the golf swing. What do they really do? Why the different camps on both sides? Why such debate and discussion? I'm making this a "sticky" topic because I think it helps sum up a key difference between me and Hardy and will help golfers understand what's going on and why.

First off, let me say that I emphasize a "smooth unwinding from the top guided by the core with passive arms," whereas Jim Hardy emphasizes "an aggressive rotation as hard as you can while throwing your right arm from the top as hard as you can," paraphrased, of course. No need for discussion on details, that's the jist of both without explaining in great detail either one. So, then the question is why? I can unabashedly answer this quite simply, the AVERAGE amateur has not the time, athleticism, flexibility, coordination, resources, etc to learn to groove this. They want to keep things simple and go out and play better right away and have fun. Sometimes they may get a little worse for a brief period of time, but generally they hit the ball better immediately when following my model. Not only that, but they hit powerful shots EFFORTLESSLY with little to no understanding of ANY of the complexities or intricacies of the swing plane, etc. For the guy who struggles to regularly break 90, this is a changing of the guard in his playing career, in one lesson, they come away with a renewed since of hope, excitement and energy for a game that seemed ridiculously complex to them. It now is made simple, they have a couple simple but powerful drills to work on for the rest of their lives and when they do these simple drills correctly, they see instant ball flight results. Even more importantly, they understand EXACTLY what went wrong when they miss without having to come see me for a dozen follow up lessons. Simple swings have simple problems that have simple fixes. For me, mission accomplished. Low maintenance swing, more enjoyment from the game, dramatically improved ball striking, better scores, that's what it's all about. These average golfers make up 85% of my clients and they represent 99% of the golfing public at large.

Now Hardy, on the other hand, his numbers are flipped the other way around. He works exclusively with Tour professionals. Now think about that for just one second. 28 million golfers in the US and his model is built around golfers that make up some .00001 percent of the general golfing population. Sure, a golfer that is that good, has that much ability, coordination, talent, etc. can do just about anything you tell them to do with a club. You can tell a professional to take the club to the top, swing it around like a lasso a couple times, drop it back to the inside and they'll still probably hit it better than most. It's nothing personal, but if your name is not on your golf bag and your not a single digit handicap, you have to be realistic about your ability.

I agree 100% with Hardy's theory, INCLUDING the throwing motion of the right arm and the hard rotation of the body, no questions asked. But, I would never, in a million years, tell a 20 handicapper to rotate from the top as hard as they can while throwing their arms around their body as hard as they can. Hell, most of them ALREADY do this in some form or another. After you've spent thousands of hours with amateurs on the range with all different body types and abilities, some obvious trends emerge. They OVERUSE their arms. Now, tell that same 20 hdcp to bend over more, get his arms more behind him, rotate as hard as he can while throwing that right arm and you get a dead pull or beautiful wipe because he simply isn't coordinated enough or doesn't have the time to put into his swing to master coordinating the two simultaneous movements. This is no secret. Hardy said right from the beginning that the one plane swing was for the more athletic golfer. No one wants to admit they're not athletic, fine, so let's redefine athletic. Hardy works with his one plane swing model with no one but Tour pros and based it heavily off two of the best professionals of all time, Snead and Hogan. I'm pretty athletic having been a professional snowboard mountaineer for 3 1/2 years in my younger years. I've snowboarded of 30 foot cornices, climbed 18,000' peaks, do just about every extreme sport there is from ice climbing to wake boarding and went to school on a college golf scholarship. The golf swing is STILL a challenge for me to this very day and I can guarantee you I spend more time on the golf course than 99.9% of you. I don't do anything from the top as hard as I can or overly aggressively because it's too hard to control consistently for me. Not only that, but I don't want to feel that I have to work that hard in my golf swing. I like hitting effortlessly powerful golf shots and that's what I strive to help others do and there is NOTHING effortlessly powerful when using the words "aggressive, hard as you can", etc.

Now, this isn't the case with everyone I teach. I have many golfers who want this in their swing. They want to go as hard as they can from the top on every shot. I'm not going to stop them. I get their arms as far behind them as humanly possible and let'em go at it. It hurts my back to watch them, but they hit very good golf shots and that's the feeling they want in their swing. Perfectly fine by me and Hardy's model works perfectly for them and I will not discourage them from doing it whatsoever. I'm helping them build THEIR golf swing, not my idea of what their golf swing should be. But, that's when I work individually, one on one, with that person. I get to know them, their demeanor, their ability, etc. I can see their tendencies, their overall motion. On this website, in my DVD's, I can't do that. I can't see your swing, so I'm portraying what I feel is the BEST SWING MODEL POSSIBLE FOR THE AVERAGE GOLFER. Unless your name is on your bag or you shoot in the 70's, THAT'S PROBABLY YOU! But, the model I have created is completely flexible as all models should be. You can still aggressively use your arms using the fundamentals I preach. But the point to it all is, one swing is hard and fast, one is smooth and effortless. They both have the arm and shoulders on the same plane at the top, they both want the "hands in, club out" on the way back. They both want body rotation on the way through and the club coming out more to the left. To make things somewhat simpler, I think it would be fair to say that Hardy's swing could be considered more of a "hit" and mine more of a "swing." You can do both with what I teach, you can still hit hard with what I'm teaching, but you don't have to. You can easily and smoothly swing through and hit the ball just as far. I'm not overly concerned with what the arms do with most golfers as long as they do very little.

I hope this helps clarify some things, feel free to ask questions.

Well, I can say that for myself, I have only shot two rounds in the eighties (83, 81) since my lesson with Chuck on March 10th. My average score has been 76. His "effortless swing" is what we worked on plus a couple of handy short game shots (a cool flop shot and bunker shots as I could already chip and putt quite well).  I was a 9 handicap before and now it is down to 7. This also includes my just starting to get used to an entirely new set of irons and a new driver and three wood.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing that can compare to Chuck's "effortless swing".  Most importantly, my back appreciates this way of swinging the club.  Smoothly rotating my core back and through the shot with relatively passive arms has stopped my backaches that I used to have after playing.  I honestly believe that the "serious" (not professional) golfer will get more out of this swing than any other way I have ever tried.  I have no doubt that I will be close to scratch by the end of the summer.

Thanks Chuck.

We could go round and round the merry-go-round forever on this, Dave, but I'm convinced Hogan just let his arms drop (the caveat being he "hit" with his right hand through the "hitting zone" right before impact). If you hold your upper body back a bit and fire your hips, you'll see that when the arms drop down, the back elbow's right at the back hip. So that's all the proof I need.

As I've posted elsewhere, I had back spasms twice in two weeks going at it hard from the top and, even though I hit some powerful, penetrating shots, the pulls were a constant source of irritation. You need to turn the lead shoulder behind you as you're throwing the arms and in no way move the upper body forward in order to work Hardy's downswing. Now, it can be done and I've hit some super shots with it, but in an unguarded moment, if you let it pull you forward, the back elbow will get in front of the hip and you'll pull or pull hook the ball. I loved the squaring of the clubface with the body but, at the end of the day, I play when I have time and rarely practice and even though I'm a decent player, it's all a lot of work.

I played today with the passive arms/hands and, for one thing, being so relaxed allowed me to make a much bigger shoulder turn, which created some serious clubhead speed. I was a bit rusty and didn't make too much on the greens but it was an easy 75.

After six months of fitting my swing to the Hardy model - and plenty of rounds where I shot much worse than 75 - I've decided easy doesn't suck.

Lefty

For what it's worth, I believe that producing powerful penetrating shots with the aggressive, active arm movement is dependent on the correct arm position, coupled with solid fundamentals and proper torso rotation.

I go at the ball aggressively from the top with hard body rotation within control and balance.  I use my right hand to pass through the ball without crossing over the left arm.  The right elbow stays up and behind my right hip before my arm straighens CLOSE and AROUND the body.  It's almost as if the underside of my right forearm is brushing by my belt.

Does passive arms work for the one-plane swing?  Sure.  But so does active arms.  To say that Hogan only had passive arms is subjected to individual interpretation.  What he wrote and felt were two different things.  Unless we've been in the mind of the late Ben Hogan, we are left to discover which arms works best for us.

Active, passive, or both -- it doesn't matter as long as the arms are moving AROUND the body.

Tim C.

Will,

This is exactly what Jim Hardy was trying to overcome by coming up with this swing of his: he wants you under the plane on the way back, then "over the top", ie, on plane on the way down. Hence, no need for the drop.

When you say overuse of arms, I have something in mind that is different from the problem I had.  I actually was using my lats, pulling down violently, but had very little rotation in my arms going through impact.  I blocked or hooked about a third of the time, and since I didn't know which one was coming, could not protect my shots from trouble.

Now when I turn, I try not to chop wood. I worked on turning my hips to load up, and then I think of turning my solar plexus.  When I think shoulders, I tend to pull the club down instead of rotating through the ball.  But since I was not rotating my forearms through the ball, I thought I had quiet arms. 

Now, when I can just keep my right wrist flat through the ball (I am a lefty), I have been striking the ball much better.  I am straighter and longer, and because I have lost the "violence" in my swing, my tempo is better which has given me more consistency.  Even my misses don't seem to hurt me as bad.

Isn't the point that you hit it pin high, irrespective of what club you use?

One year at Pebble Beach, during a practice round, a heckler who'd spent some time at the bar yelled to Davis Love that he could've hit less club into the par-3 17th. Love then pulled out all kinds of different clubs and hit them all onto the green.

When I miss a green with a 9 iron, it doesn't give me any comfort that I hit it 150 yards. I'd rather have hit a 3/4 7 iron the same distance and have had a birdie putt.

Lefty

When do you turn 16 Ricky?

One's views tend to change with age. Until then, keep trying to smash that pitching wedge 150 yards.

Rag,

I do this at the range, on the rare occasion I get to hit balls. I pick out a spot and hit different clubs to the same place. It really enhances your feel.

And Jeff ain't kidding.  I saw him at the range and he was doing great.  (Jeff, check your personal messages).

Paul

Lefty,

We had a young smasher at  my club, who quit college and wanted to "work on his game and turn pro."  I used to tell him all the time that he would never be a good golfer until he could hit an 8-iron 120 yds.  He would always answer that he could hit his 8-iron 180 yards.

BTW, he is now doing remodeling work in his father's construction business.

I know the type Hayes. I was paired with a young masher in my first round of the Pasadena City Championship last week with the purest swing imaginable but he went at it so hard every time that it was either feast or famine, every hole an adventure, triples, birdies, doubles, eagle putts. I was exhausted from just playing with him. And even with my miserable 37 putts -  - I comfortably finished ahead of him. That putting misery turned out to be contagious as in the second round - where I was just as pitiful on the greens - I was paired with a guy who's won a bunch of am trophies who hit all but two greens and shot 79! It was one of those days where you realize there's always someone worse off than you.

Anyway, back to the original point, it's interesting to me to see Tiger - who was the poster boy for lash at it as hard as you can - nowadays take pw from 100 yards and smoothly "dead arm" it in there.

Lefty

Guys,

I was talking with Burch Harmon's son Claude about 18 months ago (he used to teach at my club). He told me that when Tiger first came to see his dad, Butch asked Tiger what swing thoughts he had when standing over the ball. You know -takeway, hands, clubface, swing plane etc etc. Tiger said something like 'jeez Butch I just try and hit the friggin thing'.

Butch told Tiger to hit a few balls with his 8 iron. Butch knew he was on to something special when Tiger hit it over 220 yards!!!

The point of my Harmon lesson that day - Not the fact that I could pure my favourite 7 iron 170 yards occasionally and Tiger a lot further, but that I could only hit it with reasonable accuracy about 140 yards....

Oh, and for Tiger - about 170.

Links

Not that El Gato's not talented, but I could shut down the clubface of an 8 iron and turn it into a 5 iron, too. The second part of that, how far can you hit it with reasonable accuracy, is far more intriguing.

Here's a Tiger factoid that's impressive. Butch likes to put students on two 2x4 wooden blocks and have them swing as hard as they can without falling off. He tries to find a natural swing speed where balance isn't sacrificed. Tiger could swing 130mph and stay on the blocks.

Lefty

I have been at the OPS for 11 months now and have had a fairly good degree of success.  One thing that has always puzzled me, is how I can keep my handicap below 3, yet rarely do any two shots look the same.  On the range it is a 'moment' when I hit 5-6 balls that have the same ballflight.  My short game often saves my fanny.  I am committed to a "core driven" swing and its simplicity.  I am fascinated by the book See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside, and it's concept of an "armless swing."  Although, not always that simple for me as I have had some struggles lately with the driver and cannot get back on track.  It just doesn't feel right and the more I work at it, the more it stays consistently inconsistent. 

I was off from work yesterday afternoon and went to the course.  I got a "basket of approx. several hundred balls", took a cart and went to the back of the range to work alone in the peace of quiet of nature.  I layed a couple of clubs on the ground for alignment and proceeded to hit balls with a glove tucked under the left armpit, and focused on my takeaway.  Going great with the irons and the usual inconsistency with the driver and hybrids.  I enjoyed this for about 2 hours.

AND THEN IT HAPPENED.  I hit an 8-iron that was different.  I thought "whoa, what just happened?".  I hit another ball and felt that same sensation again.  It felt like I rotated back very relaxed and then just cleared my lower body and, without trying, the clubhead struck the ball perfectly.  I hit another 10-15 balls and tried to take in what it was that was different that I was feeling.  I realized that what I had been trying to do for two months was happening.  I was rotating left and leaving my arms behind.  Centrifugal force was at work and was delivering the clubhead perfectly to the ball.  I was getting to the top of my backswing and then just turning my belly button left and naturally my arms and club would follow. For the first time in my golfing life, I could feel my shoulders still turned behing me, and my lower half clearing to the left and creating that lag we all desire.

Let's see what happens with a 5-iron.  I hit 10-15 balls that were all identical.  High, long and a slight fade.  Effortless.  Rotate back and then beginning  to go left, without my arms.  What the heck is going on here.  I never felt this before, although I tried, and many times thought that I was doing it.

The test.  I grabbed the big dog.  Bamm, bamm, bamm.  Effortless long, high fades as straight as can be.  No lefts.  I pirated some balls from one of the range guys, as I was getting low after 2 hours,  and continued for another hour hoping to soak up this new swing sensation.  Switched back and forth from irons to woods and this new feeling, and consistent shots  continued.  I must have hit another 100 balls and all looked identical.  Who is this guy?

It took eleven months, but for the first time I truly experienced "passive arms."  It was not not what I thought it was.  It is doing nothing.  Turn left and forget about the arms.  I cannot tell you guys how juiced I am about this.  Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!

Congratulations Hayes,

It sounds like my Eureka moment at the range recently. There's no doubt it's strange getting used to the sensation of passive arms, especially trusting it on the course, but the results have been startling for me. Talk about a clear head. My arms feel like they have been drugged on the way down they feel so loose, but bloody hell does it work.

Well done on a very interesting email!

Links

I have been the biggest proponent of a core driven swing and doing the body drills while focusing on starting the rotation left with the core.  After yesterday experience, and the first real feel of passive arms and centrifugal force at work, I realize that my understanding  of the core needs to be altered slightly to focus more on a "lower core", more a belly button and hips core.  I believe that as much as I tried to  start the rotation left with my core,  I have been using too large of a core, or a more full torso rotation.  If that makes any sense.

Do not minimalize the effect of centrifugal force being at work in the downswing.  By just "letting it happen", the clubhead was delivered perfectly to the ball time after time by doing nothing with the arms and hands.  My recent problems were from "trying."

I played Friday and Sunday.  Both rounds were a mirror image of each other.  Irons are great the the drives are about 50%.  On Friday I hit some irons that any pro would envy.  Just right on the stick.  Unfortunately I had more Lips than Mick Jagger!  Irons were still very good Sunday, but the driver is erratic.  With the irons it very easy to "leave the arms behind."  I hit the range after Sunday's round and hit some erratic drivers, but as soon as I locked into rotating back and then leaving the arms there, centrifugal force took over and just delivered the clubhead to the ball perfectly, time after time. 

Now I need to engrain this and take it to the course.

Hayes wrote: With the irons it very easy to "leave the arms behind."  I hit the range after Sunday's round and hit some erratic drivers, but as soon as I locked into rotating back and then leaving the arms there, centrifugal force took over and just delivered the clubhead to the ball perfectly, time after time. 

I hear you, Hayes.  I'm working through the same issues...hitting killer irons, yet not getting the same with the driver.  It's tough to just let it happen with the big stick.  It's easier to find on the range for some reason.