I've been watching with amazement as One Planer has patiently tried to explain the effects of swing path vs. clubface angle on the flight of the ball in a couple of the other threads.  To be honest I've only skimmed through most of the posts as I find the topic to be extremely boring compared to something like, say.... oh, I don't know.... casting .

Since I haven't read through the threads thoroughly, I may not be aware of all of the finer points that people are making, but what amazes me is that there still appears to be disagreement about the most basic issues of the effects that swing path and clubface angle have on the flight of the ball.  I think part of the problem is that most of us were taught that the ball starts off in the direction of the swing path and curves in the direction of the clubface, and it can be very difficult for humans to re-examine something once they think they know all of the answers.

So anyway, I thought I'd attempt to provide some clarity to the basic issues of swing path vs. clubface angle by making a few videos.  In all of these videos, I use a coaster to represent a golf ball, and a DVD case to represent the clubhead.  I don't know if everything I present here is consistent with what One Planer has been saying or not, but I'm sure he'll let me know.  I certainly hope this doesn't just create even more confusion.

On all of the videos, it is probably best to just move the slider manually to see what happens.

In this first video, I show what happens when the DVD case (club) hits the coaster (ball) on a straight path toward the target, but with an open face angle.

As you can see, the coaster immediately starts going in a direction perpendicular to the angle of the DVD case.  The path that the DVD case is moving also imparts a clockwise spin on the coaster.  I think we all agree that for a right-hander, clockwise spin on a golf ball will make it slice in flight, and counter-clockwise spin will make it hook.  So a golf ball hit on a straight path, but with an open clubface, will start right, and go further right.

In this next video, I show what happens when the DVD case hits the coaster on an outside-in path (relative to the target line), and with an open face angle.

What may surprise some people is that even with an outside-in path, the coaster still starts off going right.  Only this time it has even more spin on it, which if it were a golf ball, would make it slice right even further.

This third video shows what happens with a clubface that is closed relative to the target line but open relative to the swing path. 

The coaster predictably (at least I hope so for everyone, by now) starts off in a direction perpendicular to the DVD case angle.  But because the DVD case is open relative to the "swing path", a clockwise spin is imparted on the coaster.  So if this were a club hitting a golf ball we would see a banana slice.

All of the above demonstrations have been simplified versions of what actually happens, because they do not take into account that the clubface is rotating through impact.  So in this last video I try to demonstrate that.

You can see that the coaster rotates clockwise, because the "clubface" is open relative to the "swing path" at impact, and then when the coaster separates from the DVD case, it goes at an angle perpendicular to the face of the DVD case at separation.

I hope this helps settle some disagreements, and doesn't create new ones.

Take care everyone,
ClubCaster

Very creative!  But here's the thing. You won't believe me because...well who am I. I understand that. You believe One Planer is correct (even though he has agreed with me and Hank Haney lately) and you have videos of dvd's and coasters to back up your argument. The chips are stacked against me....Okay now with me being a nobody, I need someone with credibility to back me (besides Hank I guess). Since most of us are here because of Mr. Quinton, I figure he'll do. Okay now I didn't ask him for help with the argument so I hope he won't mind. Now go on his web site and watch the video: How to hit a draw. Chuck hits a 3 yard draw aiming straight and allowing the club to rotate just slightly closed at impact. Nice shot!!! . I imagine the ball flying straight, curving ever so gently to the left. Okay now here's where it gets interesting. When giving instruction on how to hit a big hook- starting the ball to the right and curving it back left (his example a 10 yard draw around a tree) He aims right of the target line and allows the club to release closed at impact. The ball starts right due to the club moving to the right of target (GASP!) and the ball turns left because of the closed face at impact. If what you believe is true- that the clubface determines the direction the ball starts not the club path, then the closed clubface would start the ball LEFT and he would hit the tree! That would be dangerous!  Don't believe him? It's a conspiracy!!! Go find a tree and try to hit a draw or fade around it without swing to the right or left of it.  Good luck and FORE!!!!

 Club you have left out the most important factor with your little demo. If you had read my threads completely you would know.

  I  stated several times in several threads over several days we are not talking about a putting stroke which is pretty much along the lines of your exp. with the coasters & dvd case

 What you have left out of the equation is the most important element making  path the primary influence on initial direction.

  speed........................

It's not that I don't like your ideas OP, your like golfs Davinci code guy!  You present theories for why the ball does what it does . It's a secret code that only you know about it and you've got me thinking sequel! I'm waiting for you to reveal the secret in some Bobby Jones painting explaining the true origin of swing shape. I believe the simplest explanation to be true. The rest of the world looks at the swing and the ball flight and uses common sense to evaluate the cause. I have said over and over look at the video, and show me why what I see on every swing is wrong. You theorize what happens. Watch the club path and position of the face of the club at impact (or seperation or whatever). You can stop the video and by the direction of the path and the position of the clubface you can predict the direction and flight of the ball before it gets up in the air! The path of the club coming into the ball will always be the starting direction of it and the clubface position at impact will always change the flight after. You agreed with Hank Haney about this, but not me.  I'll post the same reply in the other thread so as not to get all long winded again. I promise to try to keep these replies shorter from now on. I hope you enjoy your round.

Wanted to add my thanks to club for posting this as visuals definitely make it easier for me to reconcile what's going on.  As far as aiming left to draw the ball around the tree, it really makes perfect sense from what OP and club have posted IRT swing path.  If I aim 10 degrees right of the tree but have a net 5 degree closed clubface at seperation regardless of swing path, I'm still going to miss the tree 5 degrees to the right. I think speed comes into play IRT just how far around the tree I get and how much spin I put on the ball.  Faster speed, more spin, more curvature.  So, the ball always leaves at 90 degrees to the clubface, but depending upon the spin charachterisitics of the ball and the clubhead speed, the 5 degrees right might not be enough or it might be too much to actually get the ball around and behind the tree where I wanted it

Having said all of the above, the point is that it's now easy for me to reconcile that the ball will always leave the club in the direction the clubface is pointing regardless of swing path. 

Actually, it almost seems like the ball flight rules have been reversed in that swing path has more to do with what the ball does later in it's flight than what the ball does originally. Not so much from a pure physics standpoint but on how we tend to release the club relative to the path we swing it on. Hope that made sense?

-Bob

I'm not thoerizing anything. A theory is something that has yet to be proven. Only OP and a handlful of others are theorizing what the ball is doing at impact. NOBODY else is saying it.

You will never hear a pro golfer or qualified instructor say: To hit a hook that starts right and moves back left you have to offset an open face at seperation with more degrees of hook rotation during compression.

You will hear them say: come more from the inside on an in to out path and have your face aimed at the target ( closed to the path) to make it start right and turn right. 

OP says the divot of a draw goes left. okay. So then a fade divot goes right? Sure it does.

OP the thread is CAUSES OF SLICE That's where you agreed with HAnk which is agreeing with me.  

OP I read your reply and I followed it again.

I'm still glad you agree with Hank. Agreeing that what he says is true helps my case.  Even if you still agree for all the wrong reasons.

Continue to argue with logic if you will (I'm sure you will).

OP have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

It's a 13th-century philosophical principal that the easiest explanation is probably the right one.

  For more evidence, think in terms of up and down, rather than left and right, on a full golf swing.  If you hit a slightly teed up golf ball with a descending blow using your pitching wedge, which direction do you think the ball will go?  Up (the direction of the clubface angle) or down (the direction of the swing path)? 

Best wishes,
ClubCaster

[/QUOTE]

Great point.

Okay GO, so offseting an open face at seperation with hook rotation during the .0005 seconds of impact is the easy way to hit a draw???

I just thought, and maybe your right that I'm being simplictic when I say all you have to do is swing on a slightly inside path with a square face at impact.

My evidence is pretty clear. I have cited golf instructors and golf researches to prove my point. YOU ALL POINT TO VIDEOS OF A DVD BOX HITTING A COASTER. AND by the way, a ball call only have backspin. The ball curves as a result of the ball spinning backward on a tilted axis in one direction or the other. It does not spin sideways perpendicular to the target like your coaster. Your silly evidence is lacking as a result. 

Randini,

Absolutely everything you wrote is wrong.  I give up.

Thanks,
ClubCaster

OP wrote:

It was a valiant and creative effort, Club.  I think you won some converts on the initial flight issue with your coaster and DVD box.

A video of a dvd case hitting a coaster is all some of you need to be converted???

Grab a camera point at yourself and spin around. Youll be convinced the world revolves around you! 

I have listened to points made from BOTH sides of this issue. Here is my final argument:

The "Wiren laws" that path is the biggest determiner of the starting direction of the golf ball, is MORE TRUE than any law to the contrary, but these laws are NOT ABSOLUTE and will not be the main determiner of starting flight in all cases.

Again, In most instances path is the primary factor in starting direction, and the face position at impact is the main factor in determining curve, but there are instances where this may not be true.

The exceptions to the "Wiren rules" are:

If the path is in-to-out or square, but the club face is severely closed at impact, (imagine the clubface looking at the ball almost horizontal to the path) the ball may be prevented from starting on the clubs path and may fly in a differnt or opposite direction.

If the path is out-to-in or square, but the club face is severely open at impact, (imagine the clubface almost horizontal open to path) then ball may be prevented from starting on the clubs path and may fly in a different or opposite direction.

Now considering both of these two exceptions, the Wiren rules HOLD TRUE, and path is MOST RESPONSIBLE for starting direction, clubface position at impact MOST RESPONSIBLE for ball flight curvature or lack thereof.

If you don't really think this holds true, I cannot do or say any more to prove my point. Good luck on the rest of this thread.

Copying my post from the "Causes of a slice" thread:

I personally think randini is on the button here..

If you open a sandwedge 45 degrees and take a swing at the ball..the ball does not fly 45 degrees to the right but relatively follows the path of the clubead..also when performing a smash with a pingpong racket the racket is aimed at least 45 degrees straight down but with an ascending path..the ball does rise and abruptly spins down on the opponents side of the table..

these are hard to disprove..I believe path affects initial direction given enough velocity..that's all for me folks..=)

Take two pool balls and align them towards a pocket.  Make sure the pool balls are touching ( a tangent drawn at this point of contact can be assumed to be a clubhead).

Hit the cue ball into the back ball from any direction behind the tangent and the front ball will ALWAYS go into the pocket.

One planer's rule at work!

OP

To tell you the truth I was a flat-earther until I remembered this little pool trick. 

Derek, Lips, et al -

I appreciate the intelligent discussion you guys have lent to this topic in debating it from a physics standpoint.  But you might now be interested in viewing the " http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3002 - More Swing Path Vs. Clubface Angle Videos " thread to see what happened with real-world tests.

Thank you,
ClubCaster 

That seems like a reasonable assessment Derek.  I'm not too hung up on whether the ball comes off the clubface exactly at 90 degrees, or just somewhere very close to it.  I just wanted to show that the initial direction of the ball is influenced almost completely by clubface angle, and not by swing path as the old flight rules stated.

Thank you for your input.
ClubCaster

Club,

  Thanks for the videos.  They are very interesting.

  One planer is so dead-on it wouldn't be worth discussing...except Randini keeps serving up a diet of rat body parts, ad hominem diversions, and now some dubious superiority complex driven stat-tracker math out for digestion.  Where's the Bromo Selzer?   I put up with bad behavior for a living.  Coming in here is supposed to be a break from it.  Yuk!

  I'm a round-earth guy.  Circumnavigated the globe in a nuclear submarine...never fell off the edge.  Gravity and centrifugal force still rule. 

  If you really think the clubface at impact is irrelevant, go find an old baseball coach and ask him if he's ever seen a right-hander hook the ball down the right-field line with a full-swing?   Or fade one down the left-field line?  Can't happen.  As Uno has tried to get across, the golf club is a two-levered unit.  The path is the one lever, but the part contacting the ball is rotating like crazy at impact.  The clubface is the lever that most counts.  The reason Drivers have a convex faced bulge is that it minimizes the hook that would come from a toe-hit as the club rotated around the shaft...the so-called gear effect.   Professor Tait figured that out in 1890.  We're still arguing about this 116 years later?  Holy Cow!  Titanium doesn't compress ProV1s more than Persimmon compressed Gutta Percha!   Same physics.  It's angular momentum, Magnus effect, Drag coefficient,  and all that old stuff. 

Someone said you can't compress a ball with a putter.  I saw Jason Zubek hit a putter 250, once straight, once with a draw, and one with a bad fade.  Dude's a freak of nature. 

BTW, the Sand Wedge argument doesn't work because the club never touches the ball.  At least, not on a good sand shot.   The bounce pushes the clubface up, the ball gets thrown out of the trap with the sand. 

Now, where's that antacid? 

Lips,

You're analysis was exceptionally well thought out and communicated.  Thank you again for speaking up and sharing your expertise with us.  I hope that you do decide to post again. 

ClubCaster