Straightening the right arm

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Topic: Straightening the right arm

I was with a friend that was taking a lesson from a well known pro who has played on both the PGA and Champions tour and is a well respected teacher.  I watched him teach students that the first move down involved straightening the right arm, which re-establishes the triangle, and sequenced the swing by allowing the arms/shoulders to catch up before turning through.  He then had them turning through more in a one-piece movement.

My question is how do you think this might fit in with the 1PS?  I tried some swings like this and made amazing contact with the ball with good compression, but it seems to be a very different move than Hardy’s where he advocates turning the right forearm down, which positions the hands very close to the body and the club well out in front.  Anyone have any thoughts on this and do you see any place for it in a 1PS or is it mainly a 2PS move?

Hey! That was one of my old 1 1/2 plane moves-of-the-week. I've forgotten why I gave it up but I remember it worked wonders for that week ...

Doesn't that move have a lot of TGM potential?

Lefty

Ha! So it is, B-Up, so it is.

Storm, not because I'm any smarter but mostly because I just got tired of looking I don't change things up anymore. Just stick with the fundamentals and engrain them. Passive arms and hands, stay centred and turn back to the ball with the hands feeling like they're being left behind (or the last thing to move). Another way of looking at it is that it's the chest which has to turn, not so much the shoulders (which can tilt instead), in the swing, so if the chest turns away from the ball and then through the ball and finishes pointing at the target, fewer things can go wrong.

You'll create plenty of lag and "whip" the club through the zone - hence you'll compress the ball and get plenty of distance - by keeping your hands back on the downswing as long as you can.

Lefty

Storm,

I've been doing what I thought was Jim Hardy's swing for more than six months and then I saw that it wasn't "correct" based on his writings on his website. I then faithfully spent a few weeks "throwing" my left arm around my turning body. It's a very aggressive move and actually a very simple, pure way to swing a club. However, it demands that you go at the ball very hard and twice I felt spasms in my back the following day. I don't typically have back problems so this was the ultimate red flag for me.

I decided to go back to what's simplest for me which, not coincidentally, is also the most effective. As CQ has said many times, we're all really "hybrids" in a sense.

I no longer bend over as much as I did when I was strictly-Hardy and neither do I turn the shoulders to initiate the downswing. I feel I suppose it's my core turning back (very, very passive arms with elbows facing one another and very connected, a la Hogan), then I initiate the downswing with the lower body and just let the arms fall down. The clubface is just square (or sometimes slightly open) without any need for manipulation.

Starting the downswing with the lower body makes it a hell of a lot easier to keep the back elbow by the back hip. I really struggled with this I think because in turning my lead shoulder "out of the way", I would sometimes move it down the line initially before turning it, hence getting the body out in front.

The thing I like about this is that the miss with this swing - which I think of as a mix of Hogan, Vijay and maybe Tiger (in that I feel I sort of "squat" coming down) - is a weak-ish fade and, frankly, that already feels a lot better than those pulls and hooks.

Another interesting side note to this is that I've found, without trying, that I pretty much finish with the back of my left hand facing the target, which is precisely what Jim Hardy advocates with his "gator arms".

Lefty

Lefty: curious as I have a slight fade also. I CAN'T afford a fade, because I'm not long enough. I was going to try something, but we got snowed on yesterday and today. Have you ever moved the ball further forward in your stance. Since we're swinging in a circle(hopefully), a fade will come because the club isn't quite square at impact. Moving ball forward will give the club more time to square up? yes/no?

PS: golf is hard

B-Up, I think you'll get some squirrelly squirters to the right if you move it up too much. Typically, I err on the side of playing it too far forward (and I hit a high ball) and I think that promotes the fade. I actually try to keep it a bit further back which - for me at least - keeps the ball down a bit and it seems much straighter. A bit punchy feeling but straight. Also, I set up with the ball up against the heel which tends to promote a fairly solid hit and doesn't give me much of a chance to fan it off the toe.

PPS: golf is really hard

Lefty,

Just came back from the range and tried what you are suggesting, and for me, just couldn't generate much clubhead speed leaving the arms passive.  When I tried making more of an aggresive move, things went off and started with some big pulls etc. and still no great speed or compression.  Which leads me to my next point.

When I take 'half swings', I seem to hit the ball fairly well, slight draw, solid contact nice trajectory, etc.  All I think of is having my arms and club moving around my body like the arms on a clock moving counter clockwise, [not sure if anyone else has this picture since I have never heard someone say this].  But when I try to make a full big swing, I can't seem to get the same action and often hit the ball much higher and not proportionately longer.  Ever struggled with this?

Storm,

What's the difference, physically, between the half and full shots? My educated guess is that you're rising out of your spine angle on the full shots (usual culprit is a straightening back leg). This is sort of what I was saying when I mentioned the "squatting" sensation. I actually increase my spine angle during the DS.

Also, if you're going to give it a shot with the passive arms, make sure they stay passive, especially the wrists. Put another way, you want to feel that when you turn the "core" back to the target, your hands are dragged to a point where they arrive at the ball with the hip and also very close to the hip. This is just a feeling but it works for me. It also gets you into a beautifully open impact position, from which there's no getting "stuck".

Lefty

Funny how back spasms can make you re-think things, eh?

BTW, How 'bout Baddeley winning? How does Leadpoison feel now? Baddeley's swinging very one plane and, not coincidentally, very nicely. The way he putts, he just needs to get it on the green somewhere.

He only got in trouble on 17 when he tried to murder that 6-iron. When he was swinging within himself he was killing the ball, and straight, too, for a guy who's played army golf for years. I thought I read he was working with a TGMer?

What I take from all of this Hardy "redo" is that getting down to the ball on the downswing is accomplished through several options.  My problem in focusing on the hips too much is that I tend to quit rotating through left, with obvious undesirable results.  Before my 1PS days my downswing was pretty much arms initiated (a la De La Torre).  I lacked consistency because I now realize I was really swaying off of the ball trying to get my weight to shift to the right.  I find it interesting and encouraging that Chuck seems to permit this new twist to Hardy as a slight variation from the "starting with the core" theory.  I am rather curious to see if the "throwing the arms" with the 1PS backswing will yield more consistent results for me, allowing me to get over to the left more consistently.  For me when I throw the arms, my hips have always responded rather consistently.  Also, I have recently found the old adage of staying behind the ball with my head, has yielded much more positive results with the 1ps than with 2ps.

Would love to hear Chuck's thoughts on the above.  Thanks for a great forum.

RW,

I have no probs whatsoever with the "throwing of the arms" and think it's a fine thing to do for those who tend to get overly aggressive with a slide or shoulder turn/tilt as it keeps the club from coming into impact "late" - the body stops turning and the arms weakly slap through impact. As you remember from the "nutshell" article, I emphasize remembering your "ABT's" and that is important to keep the club from coming in to impact too shallow and beneath the plane. I'm not opposed to using the arms in the golf swing, but I do believe that 95% of most golfers over use their arms to their detriment, thus, I emphasize keeping the arms from stealing the show. But without a doubt, I have many golfers who do use their arms and their good enough athletes to blend the necessary motions of rotation and throwing the arms. But in all honesty with no dig meant to Hardy, I don't think there is anyway that the AVERAGE golfer will have a prayer in hell working on rotating "as aggressively and hard from the top as they can while throwing their arms around their body as hard as they can." He even mentioned that 99% will come in too late with the arms with this aggressive rotation and the swing is for the more "athletic" of the golfing world, yet again, most seem to ignore it, which is partly his own fault because he changed his stance on this as well. I don't believe there is any one way to swing a club nor do I believe you can't mix HIS fundamentals by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I teach the golf swing in only one way. I am an advocate of the FACT that there are a million ways to get the job done and I am willing to borrow from many different "theories" to help someone build a better golf swing. The model I use and have come up with is different from Hardy's one plane swing but also shares many, many similarities. But if I have a good golfer who wants to rotate like crazy and is coordinated enough to throw his arms as well and strikes the ball well, there is absolutely no way I would change those traits in his swing. I work with Hardy's model for someone like that, no questions asked. But there is also no way I'm going to try and take some 30 handicapper with zero athleticism and teach him this, I'm sorry, it just won't happen. There, I will work with my model to give him a sense of his body, his core, rotation, soft arms, etc and he will quickly be able to hit effortless golf shots. As his skill improves, if I think he has the ability and it fits what I see in his swing, I might take him down that road if I think it will be best for his goals, ability, practice time, desire, etc. Lots of ways to get the job done and I think it's the instructors job to determine what will work best for that golfer and not just cram him into someone's "theory", not even my own.

Chuck,

Well stated.  I am a single digit hdcp, and can get the ball around pretty well.  What I appreciate about your teaching is your committment to what WORKS.  You also articulate it very well.  I am 1000% convinced about the core and its role.  I am only going to incorporate the thought into my DS since it feels more like my old baseball swing (which you of course heartily endorse).

Do you think my "staying behind the ball"  (head still) is indeed more effective with the 1ps, or is this my imagination?

Best, RW

rw,

My only warning with keeping your head back is that it can cause you to stop rotating through the ball. There's nothing wrong with letting your head turn through the shot like Duval or Annika as it encourages a more free rotation of the body through the shot. In either swing, the head needs to be behind the ball at impact.

CQ,

You are, of course, spot on that turning the lead shoulder behind you to initiate the DS is a pulling motion and, frankly, I'm more than a trifle annoyed that it was advocated because I felt like a retard struggling to keep the back elbow by the hip when this move makes it very, very difficult. I was determined to master the move, though, and fought through it for six months. Imagine my reaction when JH himself announced that this was a pulling motion and disown it -  - on his website.

Beyond that, I'm wondering whether it's even "advanced" to swing your arms while turning the body hard. I think it's simply just another way to swing. One which has its price, too, I might add.

I look at Geoff Ogilvy and he has a super light grip, turns and then fires the body through while the arms seem to just be along for the ride. If he wants to hit it farther, he just turns harder. He's sort of one plane at the top and I think very one plane on the way down. Anyway, for me, someone like that or Vijay is just a lot more natural and, frankly, better way to go. I was at the range the other day and striped 4 irons at the 200 flag, one after another. Not a single pull or hook among them. I sometimes went a little hard and the clubface would be slightly open and I'd miss with fades but by no more than 10 or 15 yards. Certainly no  30 yard pulls or 50 yard hooks!

Also, RW, when I struggled with getting ahead of the ball with the "lead shoulder" move, I concentrated on keeping my head back and it helped a lot. However, I don't need it now.

Lefty

CQ,

Understood. The point I was making is that I don't really think the swing's necessary for an advanced player to get better, much less a guy who can't break 100. It's simply another way to swing a club and, after much trialling, I have to say not the easiest - to execute or on the body - by any stretch.

Also, I heard Badds talking about his swing changes and how surprised he was - after four years of Leadpoison - that he "got it" so quickly. But he said something else which I'll forever take as my guide: "Ballflight doesn't lie".

Lefty

I am going back to some things said by Storm and Lefty, early on in this discussion...simplicity.  I've just gone through a little stretch with the dreaded pulls to the left with the big stick.  After getting back on track by staying connected, and "shortening" everything up, I am striping my irons again and getting close to doing the same again with the longer clubs.  I play best when it feels like half-swings, and I don't let my arms get away from my body after the backswing rotation stops, and I then rotate left with the core.  I was on the range the other day, hitting PW, 7-iron and 5-iron to the flags with my "half-swings" and I don't recall missing one of the greens.  Just a nice tight rotation and the balls were flying straight and true. 

I don't know if I ever want to get away from the simplicity of just working on the left arm to the chest and rotate and rotate.  That seems to be when I strike it the best.

Good stuff, Hayes. Also, tension's a swing killer. I picture Vijay when I get tense (which, for me, results in pulls). I think, "loose and languid and relaxed".

Lefty,

Yes, grip tension.  I am a natural lefthander (eat, write, bowl, brush teeth) and have a tendency to grip too tightly with the left hand, and this can lead to the inside move on the takeaway, which leads to the yanks.  I have also been working hard on a more relaxed grip.  I go for the Freddy Couples visualization.

Rag,

I don't know what the controversy could be about: you either hit the shot you wanted, with the ballflight you wanted, or you didn't?

Uno, I think what it comes down to is too much "trying" and not enough "doing". If you step up and are relaxed and hit the shot, it might not guarantee a good shot, but it will more often than not be better than the "thinking/trying" shot, full of anxiety and maybe even fear. To go back to Baddeley, the way he putts is amazing to me: he doesn't let himself think about it while he's over the ball. He sizes it up, but once he's over it, it's a quick look at the hole and pull the trigger.

As for Snead, do you think he was referring to "oil cans"?

Lefty

BTW,

Baddeley has had his swing revamped by Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett, Elkington's guys.

Rag, it's an interesting debate but I don't know how much it's got to do with where you hit the ball. What are the options? Slice, pull, fade, hook, straight?

a+b may equal x if all other considerations are equal. I doubt they are but more so I doubt that a golfer who fails to hit the shot really executed a and b properly. Hence, a (-10%) + B (+10%) will still not equal x.

Anyway, I can't believe I'm going on about this because it's a theoretical exercise in the extreme. I suppose what I meant is that you should let good ballflight be your judge. In other words, if you're hitting it where you want to hit it, who cares whether you have a short or long thumb?

OnePlaner,

You make a very valid point about "fast" vs. "hard".  Many years ago, I read in, I believe, "the Inner Game of Golf" this little practice drill.  Place a ping pong ball on a table.  Make a fist and punch it as far as yu can.  Now, place the PP ball back on the the table and "flick" it with one finger.  Speed will move the PP ball farther than using might.

Back to my earlier comments about a compact, half-swing sensation, swing.  I notice that when I do not overswing, and stay connected, focusing on using the core to power the swing, my swing feels "faster" and less muscled.  When the swing is more compact and connected, you have to move faster to get the hips out of the way and generate clubhead speed.  You will hit the ball as far, or farther, because you will hit the middle of the clubface more often and consistently.  when my swing gets too long, it is much harder to time everything and maintain a good sequence.

The other day, on the range,  I was locked into this feeling like I had a towel across the chest under both armpits.  Very compact and connected.  Every ball was dialed in.  Now to take it to the course.  I need to get into the habit of taking a few notes after a successfull practice session and reveiw before the next practice session or going out to play.

Hayes,

That's precisely the feeling I have, with the caveat that it just seems to work better to have, as Hogan advised, the elbows closer together than I'm used to.

Rag,

You're so easily confused, my friend!  It was an oblique reference to another thread about long or short thumb positions on the handle which I found amusing.

Here's a pic of O'Grady in '86 at the top of his swing:

http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=5677 - http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=5677

Lots of one plane traits in his backswing.