Jeff,

It's interesting that you mention this.  The past few days, I've been working a lot on ball position in my stance. One of the few things I've had problems with on all of my clubs is slightly pulling or pushing the ball and I had orginally thought that had more to do with whether my arms were being passive enough. I'm realizing though that it may have more to do with ball position. I do not know why it is that the club face squares up with the same swing for different clubs using different ball poistions but it seems to. Hope that made sense? At least I don't think I do anything differently as far as the swing goes from one club to another. In short, no matter what club I hit, if I play the ball too far back, I push / draw it, too far forward, I pull / hook it.  It seems to me that the only drawback to the 1 ps is that the club face is square to the target for a less amount of time than that of the 2 ps. Therefore, ball position is probably a little more important.

Regards,

Bob

Concur.

If there's a drawback - and it's a big if considering most players need the ball to go straight - it is that there's really only a straight ball in play with this swing. Again, this ain't anything to  about!

I find - as I've said in another post - that if I make a little slight and I underline slight - yes, it's easier to type underline than actually underline  - hip "nudge" to the ball, it seems to square my clubface up beautifully. It's almost like you nudge the back hip and then hold it and the rest of the body just comes through together. Very smooth.

Anyway, that's sort of by the by. Today, I hit a couple of pulls and one snapping hook. The swing didn't feel much different to me so I was wondering what might have caused it. I thought of ball position. I thought I was playing it middle on one shot and asked my playing partner who said it was forward. So you may be onto something.

Lefty

shootin4par,

Cool! I was pretty sure there was a good logical explantion for it, just hadn't really thought about it all that much.

Thanks for sparing me the brain power

Regards,

Bob

In any type of effective golf swing -- one plane, two plane, or otherwise -- the clubface is only square to the target for an almost infinitesimal amount of time.  That's because, in any proper golf swing, the clubface rotates through impact.  That is, the toe of the clubhead rotates around the heel.  In other words, the toe travels faster than the heel through impact.

A golf club is a two-levered tool.  The shaft is one lever, and the clubhead is the other lever.  If the clubface isn't rotating, the toe and heel are traveling at the same speed.  That's very difficult to achieve in a side-on swing with a two-levered tool.  You'd have to swing the club through impact in a sort of check-swing motion, with no forearm/hand rotation; hence, no shaft rotation; hence no clubface rotation. 

No good player swings the club that way.  Every good player rotates the toe around the heel through impact.  In fact, most poor players do, too.  It's practically unavoidable, and you don't want to avoid it anyway if you intend to use the two-levered tool the way it is designed to be used from a side-on stance.

In spite of the fact that the ball doesn't stay on the clubface very long, there is a lot of going on in that fraction of a second that the ball is compressed against the clubface.  In a well-struck golf shot, the clubface is actually slightly open at first contact with the ball.  While the ball is compressed against the clubface, the clubface is rotating.  "Square" is just a very fine point the clubface passes through on its journey from open to square to closed. 

That being the case, square is a very elusive goal to strive for.  In fact, it’s the wrong goal to strive for if you want to hit good shots.  Good shots result from using the tool – the two levered golf club – properly.  All that means is that you must “release” the clubhead through impact.  Releasing in this case means rotating the face with the proper timing.

As I said above, in a well-struck shot, the clubface is slightly open at first impact with the ball.  The open clubface puts slice spin on the ball.  While the ball is compressed against the face, the toe of the club is traveling faster then the heel.  This puts added pressure – compression – on the outer hemisphere of the ball, more pressure than there is on the inner hemisphere.  The rotation of the toe around the heel puts hook spin on the ball. 

The two forces – slice spin from the open face and hook spin from the rotating toe – act against each other to affect the flight of the ball when it leaves the club.  If the face isn’t closing fast enough, the slice spin will prevail over the hook spin, and the ball will curve to the right.  On the other hand, if the face is rotating fast enough, the added pressure on the outer hemisphere of the ball will cause the hook spin to prevail over the slice spin, and the ball will curve to the left.  The relatively straight shot happens with the two axes of spin counteract each other.

It’s as simple as that, except there are two other dynamics to consider. 

First, it is a physical law that the ball will always start its journey in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.  If the face is open (looking right of the line) when the ball separates, the ball will start to the right of the target.  Whether it continues in that direction is determined by the spin dynamics I’ve described above.  It may continue to go straight to the right, in which case the slice spin and hook spin have counteracted each other; it may curve farther to the right, in which case the slice spin has prevailed; or it may curve back to the left, in which case the hook spin has prevailed.  The same rules apply if the face is looking left, and also when the face is perfectly square at separation.  The ball will go straight, right, or left depending on which axis of spin wins the battle.

Secondly, the path of the clubhead can accentuate the spin bias in either direction.  An in-to-out path tends to accentuate hook spin.  An out-to-in path tends to accentuate slice spin.  In either case, you still have the war between slice spin and hook spin going on, but the path of the clubhead augments the influence of one side or the other.  

The nice thing about the one plane swing is that, when done properly, the path of the club is in-to-in, which eliminates one variable – path induced spin -- but that’s also why it’s important to get your ball position right.  When it’s right, your divots with irons will point very slightly to the left of the target line. 

Of equal or even greater importance is the fact that you don’t have to fret about all that slice spin/hook spin business because the rotational release with passive arms and hands will take care of your timing issues for you.  That’s the real elegance of the one plane swing.

One Planer – We Love Ya.

Your vast experience and knowledge of the game is a treasure chest that trumps most, if not all, on this Forum (including Chuck). I paid particular attention to all your posts AND for good reasons: a successful one-plane convert, a collegiate teammate of Jack Nicklaus, a plus-one handicap, and a serious competitor but with a good sense of humor.

But I fear your last two excellent posts may have just given our non-technical brethren coronaries. Hopefully, given the hour – they will have had an adult beverage or two before they read them.

Keep up the thoughtful – often succinct – but always informative - posts! You’re the man!

I'm with ya em9 in as far as paying attention to all of One Planer's posts. The only bit of advice One Planer has given I've read that I don't adhere to is restricting the hips on the backswing. I tend to go with what Adrian & Chuck say on the DVD. But that's what, one small thing out of a bazzilian very insightful thoughts on the game that One Planer has contributed...  I've said it before and will say it again, your contributions are very much appreciated One Planer!

Regards,

Bob

E-9,

you've got us non-techies all wrong, man.  I too, enjoy technical post, for how else would I learn the proper movements?

Lefty,

About the ball position.  I went to a driving range the other day that has bisecting lines on the mats and I was shocked at how far forward I was playing my short irons, when I thought they were back in the middle of the stance.  Probably not a bad idea to place a club between our legs for ball position alignment to keep a check on this.

You're right, Hayes. Good idea and I'll start doing that, too. And, oneplaner, thanks too for your always insightful posts. Always worth a read and good value.

Lefty

Guys and Gals,

If I had to pick only one poster's post to read and heed, then those would be the post's of One Planer. I have been reading and learning from his post's ever since he was known by the moniker of "Machamish Mor" on RSG and that was long before this site even existed. Not only do his post's contain the knowledge and experience of decades of playing golf, but they are written in such a clear and consise manner, and often with a sense of humor, that leave no room for misinterpretation. I am continuely amazed at the vast store of knowledge and wisdom that he posesses on golf. The fact that he is willing to share that knowledge and wisdom, only serve to point out the nature of his character. He, my friends, is a Golfer in the truist sense and I can think of no greater compliment that I could pay him.

My admiration for One Planer is such that if I could play a round of golf with only one person, that person, other than my golfing hero and idol if he were alive, Ben Hogan, would be One Planer. Oh I know that he would beat me like a drum and if money was at stake, I would definitely have to get more strokes per side than my current handicap of 13 would suggest, but I know too that it would be a most enjoyable experience with a lot of good natured humor capped off by revisiting the round at the 19th hole with a few adult beverages.

Thanks One Planer for all you do to make these forums a truly enjoyable and learning experience.

Kindest Regards,

Magic   

Rag, in the words of that great modern philosopher, Snoop Dogg, be cool, fool ...

I'm having a bit of fun and certainly wasn't singling you out at all. Though I do think it's somewhat disturbing that we seem to be splintering when there's really no need.

As I've said before, it's a matter of emphasis. However, if you aren't sure of your sequence (ie, how to swing) then it really doesn't matter how mentally tough you are, you're not going to play your best; you merely make the best of a bad situation, which has its merits but isn't ideal.

There are guys with bad swings who know how to get it in the hole and there are guys with great swings who shoot in the 80s but, at the end of the day, you'd want to have a solid swing AND know how to get it in the hole.

So my priority would be to make sure you learn the swing until you have it down pat and then, to get to the next level, work on the mental game. It seems to me that doing it the other way would be putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

As an aside, a friend of mine, who was a college golfer - and a good one - and now plays sporadically (though still shooting in the 70s) maintains that no one should carry a handicap above single digits. His reasoning is that the fundamentals aren't that hard to duplicate and, if you figure out how to chip it close and make a few relatively short putts, you should shoot in the 70s. As another sage once told me, miss 18 greens and get up and down, you're a scratch golfer, but it's better to not miss all those greens ...

Can't argue with that logic.

Lefty

NB - Also, and this shouldn't be overlooked, we're all at different stages in the process on this forum. So there will be guys who feel they have the swing down who are wasting shots on the course because of mental lapses and guys who aren't sure they have the swing down at all, all the way down to true beginners. I think we need to cut people some slack and if they ask for technical information, be willing to pass it along.

I played the other day at TPC Scottsdale with a guy who can't break 100 and another who struggles to break 90. Just the luck of the starters' draw. I spent most of my day helping them with their swings. They felt bad but, you know, when I started playing, there were better players who helped me along the way. I feel that this game of ours is a journey and it's almost my duty to help those in need move along, just as others helped me.

OP-

That is the first time I ahve ever heard that explanation of the bottm of the swings arc...it makes sense, I think.  But how do we create divots behind the bottom (as referenced by you) with irons that are played in the middle of our stance?  Does that correlate to some sort of reverse (I guess) weight shift?  And furthermore should we strive for divots that are deepest at the point just below our forward shoulder joint?

Lefty,

Splintering is definitely not my intention, and I agree that all of us are at different stages on the learning curve.  I never meant to suggest that there was no room for mechanics, for if I did I would be a hypocrite, trust me.

It would help if I typed a little slower allowing those years of experience using the English language to work properly. 

The question I was trying to ask should have been more like:  If a golfer is creating divots that start just after impact when the ball is played in the middle of the stance are you implying that they have created some sort of reverse weight shift or an early relase?  According to your description the divots should start further down the target line (i.e. near the forward shoulder joint) correct? 

Couple of stupid questions:

One:  If you are supposed to hit the driver on the up swing, as I have read countless times, doesn't it stand to reason that the club head will have already reached its lowest point in the swing and also started to come back inside at impact?

Two:  Hardy mentions that it is okay to open up the shoulders at address in the one-plane swing, especially with longer clubs.  Those who have experience, is this to facilitate the more forward ball position?

Thanks in advance

OP - It clicked when you mentioned the arc of the hands bottoming out ahead of the clubhead, now it makes perfect sense.  I understood the other pieces you mentioned, it was the bottom of the arc and the lforward shoulder that wasn't clicking.

Ragtop - I thought he said opening the shoulders was not a good thing, but slightly closed was OK.

Guys and Gals,

This post is probably a off topic to what is being discussed here and in all likelyhood should be posted as a new topic, but since I have just put in a 13 hour day and am tired and sitting here enjoying perhaps the coldest beer to have ever crossed my lips and am just too damn lazy, I will make my observation quick and to the point.

While I was sitting here reading thru this discussion, it suddenly struck me just how ironic it is that here we are some 50 odd years after Mr. Hogan was in his prime as a golfer, discussing the way Mr. Hogan swung a golf club. Perhaps it is not the major championships and all that Mr. Hogan accomplished during his great career that will be his legacy to the game, but his true legacy to golf will be that of being perhaps the greatest single individual to influence the golf swing in the history of the sport. One Planer mentioned that A.J. Bonner based much of his theories on Hogan's techniques. Jim Hardy has said it was John Jacobs stating that Hogan swung everything on one plane as the genesis for the search that ultimately led to his formulating his theories on having two separate sets of fundamentals for the 1ps and 2ps. David Leadbetter's article on Hogan's Fundamentals. Jim McLean's Analysis of Hogan's Swing. Hell, even the TGMer's point to Mr. Hogan's swing as the near perfect example of the hitting technique of TGM. I sure that there are others, but these are just a few off the top of my head that have been influenced by the way Mr. Hogan swung a golf club. His little book that started out as a series in a magazine and went on to become "Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" that is a classic of golf instruction that has been read by untold millions of golfers worldwide. God willing, "The Plane Truth for Golfer's by Jim Hardy will take it's rightful place along side of "Five Lessons" one day.

I wonder if Ben Hogan ever dreamed of the influence that his swing and swing theories would have the impact that they have had in the past 50 years, and in all probabilty, many years into the future as well. I wonder if he were alive today, just what he would think of all this........

Quick and to the point? O.K., I lied! Just some ramblings of one tired old fart that needs another cold beer and dinner.  

Regards,

Magic 

Magic,

I couldn’t agree more.

I have a multiple-monitor computer setup (the technocrat that I am) and after working hours - I often play a slow motion video clip that I have of Hogan on one of my monitors.

So while reading your post - I am watching Hogan - eating my dinner (a bowl of chili) and drinking a cold one. I raise my glass and say AMEN.

>>I wonder if Ben Hogan ever dreamed of the influence that his swing and swing theories would have the impact that they have had in the past 50 years, and in all probabilty, many years into the future as well. I wonder if he were alive today, just what he would think of all this........<<

The more I study the swing, going from one book to another back to Hogans book to compare, the more I realize what a genius this guy was.

The Fundamentals book seems simple, but if you are not paying attention to where he puts the commas and the simple things he says you will not get it.

If you do not have a neutral to weak grip like he shows, you will not be able to bow out the lead wrist at impact..and on and on..

The experts say that only Hogan could use his techniques because of his uniqueness, but I am beginning to doubt that. His swing seems quite simple comparatively speaking, IF one does exactly as Hogan says.

However it may be nececessary to learn the basic swing to understand what he is expressing.

 This is where Chucks' one plane comes in, because it is a simple more basic movement from which I think a person can add moves or leave as is and have fun playing not thinking about the technical aspect.. 

dp

moonshot,

You lost me on that last post. You went from Hogan is the man – to don’t think about the swing.

No one thought more about the swing than Hogan!

Arba, you are in the right place - everyone on this Forum needs a shrink! Most of Chuck’s recent posts are commercials for the Members’ Vault – you need to start airing your own commercials.

>You lost me on that last post. You went from Hogan is the man – to don’t think about the swing.<

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. I agree Hogan was the ultimate thinker about the swing.

I am just saying that the baseball style swing is probaby easier to learn and maintain for the occasional golfer. And I think would only help someone if they wanted to move further into understanding exactly what Hogan is all about.

Myself, I am obsessed with this *&%^ swing until I have a clear picture of exactly what I am supposed to be doing, and Hogan has become my model.

And each week I get a little closer...

dp

01ragtop,

Another benefit of opening the shoulders a little is to level them out without tilting them. See page 17 – 2/3rds of the way down - in the “Bible”.

I’m not aware of Jim ever making a distinction regarding the length of the club.

One Planer & Emergency9,

Thanks, of course, that makes sense. 

One Planer,

So you think the driver should be hit during the flat zone?  This is the first time I have ever heard this.  Am I misinformed by the glossy pages of Golf and Golf Digest once again?  Say it ain't so!