After a debate on Jim Hardy's website about this, I gave the "hard (body, arms, hands, everything) release" advocated by two Hardy disciples there a shot today. I have to say it's a radically different way to swing from what I had been doing. The key is to keep the clubface pointing at the ball (or, square to the arc) as long as you can on the way back, which naturally slots your elbow back behind you and stretches your front arm across your chest.

You can not rotate the forearms off the ball. I think some days I did this and others I didn't, as I never really thought about it. This no-forearm-rotation point has has been said before, I know, but somehow I guess I missed that lesson. It turns out to be a crucial component of the swing.

This single move gets you to the correct position at the top.

From the top, you turn everything really hard and keep turning. But you don't release the club in the traditional way. This is how you get the feeling Hardy describes of "gator arms", where the back elbow stays against your side but is sort of pulled by your front arm which starts bending across the body as it rotates through the shot.

I've read this plenty of times but I guess I never understood what Hardy was saying. The forearms don't cross over as in a 2PS release. It feels like you're holding on but it delivers the clubface very square. And very powerfully. I can now really see what Hardy means by taking timing out of the equation.

I must caution that I hit a few hooky pulls so I've got to sort it out but the majority of shots I hit today were really powerful and, beyond that, I felt like it was at best a three-quarter swing. I hit a utility 275 and I've never hit that thing more than 250.

Lefty

Lefty,

Can the shaft not across the target line at the TOP without any rotation of forearm?

Armuge,

I wasn't back there looking

That said, I'm sure there was forearm rotation, naturally, as the arms went up and back - ie, the final third of the backswing - I just didn't feel it, or more importantly, try to do it. The key is no concious forearm rotation off the ball. The other thing this does is keeps the clubhead from getting inside the hands. I sometimes got in trouble with having the club too far to the inside and I think now that this was the cause.

Lefty

Thanks Lefty.

I should just forget about how my shaft looks like at the top and keep swinging. When I don't rotate my forearm I feel so powerful at the top and I hit balls very well. Time to time I get some pull shots and I suspecting that it may caused by my top position.

Hey B-Up,

Apparently, not tinkering enough! Anyway, it's an element of the swing I was already making, so I don't classify that as tinkering (certainly by my historic standards, where each hole could bring a different swing!)

Tim,

I didn't rotate them on purpose but I think it happened from time to time. I certainly never made a point of keeping the clubface square to the arc or keep it pointing at the ball as long as possible. In other words, it probably happened, but this way it seems to guarantee that there's no forearm roll.

More significantly, I know that I was releasing the club on the through swing. This release is different altogether.

Lefty

Lefty,

Well, I think I mentioned it before but I haven't made a conscious effort to swing with gator arms because I didn't want one element of my swing to be more overcooked than the rest.  So.... be careful.

Tim C.

I agree with Dave.  Trying to keep the clubface looking at the ball stops the clubhead hopping over the toeline too quickly, something a lot of amateurs do too soon and I'm sure lots and lots of one-plane swingers are prone to do as well. 

Quite often, the start of the backswing is a turn and a swing of the arms inside, instead of waiting for the turn to bring the club inside when it's good and ready.

A full turn from here will feel like a 3/4 swing because, although you've made your full turn, you've made a shorter arm swing.  (May also feel that your arm stays straight for longer into the backswing.)

From here you can turn hard at the ball without worrying about having to add anything with the hands and arms because they haven't adding anything going back, haven't manipulated the clubface.  No action, no reaction.

I posted this yesterday, in another thread.

"Byron Nelson, when talking about the discoveries that helped his game, made some comments that you will find interesting and helpful.

He talked about seeing pictures of leading amateur and professional golfers of his day "Rolling their writsts" as the swing nears the ball--as a result of a series of experiments, he found that when he did not roll his wrists, and just let  them stay in place for "about thirty inches before impact and through the early stages of the folow through," he increased his accuracy."

I didn't get it several years ago, while taking a couple of lessons, but the instructor was teaching this hard rotation left, holding off the rotation of the forearms.  The clubface was facing skyward after impact well into the followthrough.  Looking back, a lot of what he was trying to teach was one plane principles, but he didn't teach it that way.

As always, Uno's on the money.

It's very different, let me say again, from the "traditional" way I had been releasing the club (and I doubt I kept it that closed going back, either, though of that I'm not sure because I never thought about it).

I now understand why Hardy says you can turn as hard as you want. I had been thinking of passive hands v active hands in terms of their rotation and movement. Actually, the hands are only holding the grip, but they are holding on quite firmly and not really turning at all, that's the difference, hence are "active". As Uno noted, the forearms do not crossover, which is definitely weird to me.

It is a body release because the body sort of "shoves" the clubhead into the ball with the arms feeling like they haven't changed their relationship to one another from address, if you get that visual. The clubface also stays square (which took me some time - and a few hooks - to trust).

The oddest thing is the alligator arms just sort of happen. I didn't really try to finish like that but I felt the sensation of two "short arms" around impact, the back arm chasing the front arm.

Lefty

Hayes, I think Byron was onto something

Tim, I don't think it's possible to overcook this one.

That's what I'm saying, Dave, I've always felt it DOES want to rotate naturally (ie, the forearms). Hence, you have to not do it and just "hold on". I don't mean "hold back", I mean "hold on".

If you get the feeling of the traditional golf swing release as clearing the trailing side, this is nothing like that. This is smothering the ball with your trailing side.

If you want to get the feel of it, set up slightly closed with your feet to the target and slightly open with your shoulders.

Lefty

Lefty,

I am a tad confused. I have read Hardy's book several times and do not remember reading anywhere to keep the face closed/facing the ball.  Maybe I was too excited about how much my swing would improve by buying his book.

I have read this post three times an still am confused on the backswing?  And at the top, by that I mean the forearms never rotate at the top or is it just a natural event?

B-up,

I'm visualizing your swing but it's hard to know. I would say, though, that if you did it this way, you'd compress the bejesus out of the ball and you'd be hitting it longer than ever.

55,

The clubface is actually closed at waist high if you keep it facing the ball - or, as Hardy says, square to the arc (same thing). From there, you do the lawnmower move and the forearms naturally rotate nearer the top. But you don't rotate them early. Again, I probably didn't do this but I certainly didn't guarantee not doing it before. This takeaway, with the hands not rolling at all but moving over the back foot, keeps the clubhead outside the hands and, when you pull the lawnmower chord after that, it sets the club perfectly at the top (ie, don't worry about your forearms in the second part of the backswing).

Get the idea that the positional relationship you establish between the forearms at address really doesn't alter much throughout the entire swing.

Also, another way to look at it is that the back forearm (for me , my left) stays above - ie, doesn't go underneath - the front forearm.

Lefty

Lefty,

Thanks that helps.  When I stand upright and do the baseball swing it looks like you are describing. I guess I never noticed it from that perspective (baseball swing).  Why would I have paid attention to the club position in a drill .

It will take some experimentation but I will try it and re-read your posts on the downswing again.

Fly,

The approach Leadbetter was teaching 15 years ago??? I dunno what he was teaching 15 minutes ago but I'm guessing it's changed. I'm sure he's touched all the bases.

Anyway, I can't imagine it's the same thing. Simply, you just keep the clubface pointing at the ball as long as you can and pull the lawnmower chord. Where things get different is on the way down. You turn hard but dont let your arms release, as you would in a normal swing. You keep them close and you don't let the forearms crossover. You still turn hard and do all those other things but the forearms stay fairly well where they were in relation to one another.

I want to say that I'm sure lots of other people already know/do this. I'm merely saying I wasn't. I have been releasing in th traditional way.

I also want to say, as I say in jricci's thread, that this ain't the low maintenance "turn-turn" swing. I really think it's something I have to practice.

And, 55, yeah, I had the same ironic laugh when I realized that it is the baseball swing!

I guess I'm just a slow learner ...

Lefty

Look like alligator arms according to this picture:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200505swingplane5.html - http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction /gd200505swingplane5.html

Also, see how the hands and club pointing near his right hip at waist high -- evidence that he is taking the club back DEEP without premature forearm rotation off the ball.  If there was forearm rotation, the clubhead would be near facing to the sky and result too flat of a backswing.  From that point on, the arms work UP to match the shoulder plane.

Have you guys been doing this lately? 

Tim C.

Lefty,

That makes two of us that are slow learners.  Also I don't think I can accurately explain the lawnmower move?

Could you explain it to me? Or direct me to a picture?

Theres that lawnmover thing again.

Just don't get that.

55,

If you were starting a lawnmower - the old school ones - you have to give that chord a good zip (or a chainsaw would be the same, I guess, though I'm no lumberjack!).

So it's the feeling of pulling on it to get the thing started.

Billy, I wouldn't say it's Snead's two lawnmowers. More so you are smothering the ball with your trailing shoulder while your hands are near your thigh. You'll feel a little chicken winged. This all hinges on no crossover of the arms. If you get that - turning just as you are at the top of the backswing - you've got it.

Striker, I have a fairly neutral grip, maybe a touch strong but hardly. I hold the club as if I'm holding a hammer. Good visual for me.

Lefty

Maybe Hardy was onto something after all.  Re: no forearm crossover

Ben Hogan 

TC,

Yes that drill and you explained it much better than I did.

I just did not realize it.

Flyfishin,

I think I am beginning to grasp the concept.  If the body doesn't fully rotate through to the finish form like Ben Hogan in the picture, the arms would either be crossing over a-la 2 plane OR, with the gator arms, the leading arm would be chicken-winged.

I guess it's ok to show a bit of a chicken wing as long as you rotate through well past the impact zone.  Shrugs.

Tim C.

No question, you can not rotate the forearms at all going back (until they naturally do in the final third of the backswing). Disastrous things happen with this if you get too inside.

Uno, it's a powerful swing but very different feeling. It's like you're driving into the ball with the body. Though as I say, I've got to try it again and again and groove it (I released the forearms a few times yesterday and really bad things happen).

Fly, if you set up closed with your feet but a little open with the shoulders and let your right forearm stay above your left one, you'll get the idea.

Lefty

What great feedback from one post on this site.

I don't mean to speak for Lefty but I will speak for me.  I think that some of the more veteran OPS'ers may be doing this "forearm, club square to the arc thing" naturally.  I agree with Lefty that it may happen for me sometimes, but not all the time.  I know that I definatley cross the arms over each other either right at impact or shortly after it.  I have hit those pulls to the left as well not knowing why, now I might have an idea of what causes it. For me, Lefties post was more of a cue for him and maybe for me.  I have read on this site of a "bump" or a trigger to the left or to initiate the downswing.  I have not needed a trigger or bump to start the downswing.  That does not mean I don't use one, I just never paid attention to it.  So for me and maybe Lefty he has found a fault in his swing and a potential "trigger" that others may have naturally.

Dave,

I would also agree that it could definately be a flaw in my setup.

I'm the guy that can't figure out the "lawnmower" move.

I don't like to speak for anybody, but I will try anyway  I think what OP is saying is that ball flight is the final determinant as to whether you made a good swing or not.  Ball flight has to do with one thing--where was the club at impact and at the flash instant of time that the ball separated from the club face.  I believe it was in GD last month where John Jacobs said he could easily tell a golfer what the clubface was doing at impact by watching the ball flight of that particular shot.

Impact is the true moment of truth in the golf swing.  The ball only knows what the club is doing during the swing during the few inches of the impact zone. 

Try not to turn your shoulders as you across your left arm around your chest and folding right elbow back and up. This will give you better feeling to understand what JH's talking. It's just like baseball swing. I didn't understand why OP swing is wide swing naturally until I realised that how much club head moves by just moving my arms across my chest without any movement of shoulders.  When I try to replicate same feeling over my much bended spine, I think I understand what JH and Lefty are talking about. The execution of JH OP swing feel totally different from how I used to swing. I'm so happy to find a swing which does not require to roll my hands over through impact area.

Reading the posts in this topic, I have found many things that I have struggled with in the past. 

As some of you know, I had/have problems with the passive hands idea.  I had very little rotation because of this "passive" arms idea, and struggled with a slice.  I used a very strong grip just to hit my short irons straight, but the longer clubs were hopeless.  Finally, I was talked in to using a weaker more neutral grip by Hayes959. (thank you to him BTW) Using the weaker grip I rotated my arms through the back-swing, and allowed them to rotate back through on the downswing.  This however introduces an element of timing. 

While reading on another website, I ran across the idea of using a weak grip(hogan weak) and making sure your left wrist is flat at impact. (some of you know what I was reading, now)  By using this method I was able to eliminate the timing equation.  You, of course, have to watch for an early release, but as long as you keep that flat left wrist at impact, using a weaker grip, you are guaranteed to have a square club-face.  Why?  Because the Club-face matches the back of the left wrist at every part of the swing.  The arms do not roll over each other at impact, (Not a release) the right arm is slightly bent, but straightening, the left wrist flat, the right wrist is bent, hands are in front of the club-head.(The hands are in a very similar position at impact, as they are at the top of the back-swing, therefore, if the hands don't have to move much, then the timing is almost eliminated)

For those who like the idea Lefty has mentioned about very little initial rotation, you may have to play a stronger grip.   Because of the lack of arm rotation, the club face will not be closing as much during, or after impact, therefore the ball may try to go right on you a little.  A stronger grip will neutralize this, and could very well be why Hardy recommends the stronger grip. 

I know a lot of you probably will not like what I am suggesting here, but look at how many pros have a flat left wrist at the top, club-face matching it, and a flat left wrist at impact.  There must be something to this.

Ok, I'll weigh in here briefly. First off, regarding the "alligator" arms (correct spelling used, hey, I'm a Florida boy now and you have to know how to spell alligator :) No question, this works and relies on the release of the arms, particularly the right arm and the folding up and back of the left. It creates the very flat release you see on guys like Jacobsen, where the club comes out well beneath the left shoulder, although I've yet to see it come out under the left shoulder and held off from the toe releasing the way Hogan did. I believe there was an earlier pic of this. Hogan released with everything he had and spent a billion balls learning how to perfect that aggressive move. Jacobsen, in all the shots I have seen of him, releases the toe of the club over. If someone has video of this not happening, feel free to post it. Either way, it really doesn't matter, one will tend to fade and will tend to draw. I quite honestly, don't focus on the release of the club and don't really care is someone chicken wings it and hits it solid or releases his hands and hits it solid. I can show you dozens of tour players who are more one plane at the top and release the club different ways. However, I can't show you many who release the club the way Hardy advocates. Yes, Hogan did it, but Hogan was Hogan and he hit more balls and worked on his game more than all 2400 people on this forum put together. The more aggressively you work the arms and the more aggressively you work them around to the left during the release, the more the "alligator" arms naturally happen. You needn't look very far to see this move:

Does this guy look familiar?

Bottom line. I prefer to teach most golfers to keep the arms passive and let centrifugal force straighten everything out and release the club without conscious manipulation. I have seen it produce incredible ball striking in hundreds of students and cure so many common woes, it's not even funny. If it didn't produce effortless, powerful, penetrating golf shots, I wouldn't teach it, period. The fundamentals I laid out in the Nutshell article are the fundamentals upon which to build your swing, like the foundation of your house. But from there, I let the house take shape and shape it into what works best for that golfer. I have professional golfers that I teach who release hard to the left the way I do and I have them that really release the clubhead and the right arm over the left. They all do the fundamentals correctly and they can build upon those fundamentals any way they wish. That being said, keeping the arms quiet and soft allows the release to happen powerfully without effort, alligator arms takes a lot more effort and is far more aggressive.

As for the left wrist, it should be flat at impact, but flat is misunderstood and the grip needs to be taken into account. As for studying the pros, you can definitely get lost by studying a couple, but study dozens or hundreds and you'll begin to learn some very important trends. The most important thing is that they tend to have the most efficient movements. What makes them efficient and repeatable is key and I spend a lot of time studying them for this very reason.