Fred Couples

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Topic: Fred Couples

In my opiniom one can not be much more of a Two Plane golfer than Fred Couples. Do not look to find any OPS in his action, it is not there...

Hogan

I think that this is the point that has ruined many golfers learning in the past. We could state that EVERY swing is or has one plane or two plane concepts. I find it comical that on could look at Fred Couples swing and think it has one plane aspects. If rotating the body is only done in a one plane swing than are there any two plane swings. Hardy himself gave the concept of two swings to try and clear things up. When one introduces a third swing "hybrid" it does no justice and service to anyone...

I know Fred fairly well and can tell you that a one plane swing is not on his mind, AT ALL. BTW it has been pointed out on this site as well that VJ's finish is not that of a classic one planner, so your point further stenghtens my statement. (VJ straightens his spine at impact...)

Hogan

Guys

Fred Couples is a great player, but watching the Nissan Classic on the last holes, he really lost his timing and sliced a 3w 50m to the right...  I did not want that for Freddie, but he got tense and lost his relaxed and effective swing.  That is a 2PS weakness.

On the other hand, Rory Sabatini has a very unique swing

Jonag,

Good observation about Freddie losing his composure and coming apart on the last 4 holes.  He was clearly nervous having not been in that position much lately.  However, that's not just a 2PS weakness.  I don't care what type of swing you have--1PS/2PS/Hybrid--if you get nervous and stop committing to your shots you are going to come apart in the heat of competition.  True, the 2PS relies more on timing, and if your timing is a hair off you will struggle, but nerves and tension (and any less than positive emotion for that matter) will destroy any swing and cause bad shots.  Bad thoughts lead to bad swings--1PS or 2PS.

Just my thoughts.

Dean

For what is worth I feel Baffy's thoughts, ways and understanding of the swing will lead him and others to looking for answers and defining things. Rather than looking at information and processing it, people like him need to be right on all. I believe the main reason many have learned and been enlightened by Hardy and Chuck's teaching is that the have a reference to go off of, OPS or TPS. If people like him keep finding ways of combining the two swings we will be back where we started.

 I do not think this is "pointless" because your ways are not always right...

Hogan

Great going, MikeC keep it up... it works keep it up

Hogan

MBARRY,

I ask that you do not read or pay attention to the comments regarding Fred Couples as having a OPS. He may be one of the best examples of a TPS (along with Colin Montgomery) out there. I love this site and know that others do as well, I am not looking to argue with anyone but when they are saying something that is not true it does not help anyone...

Please someone else tell me, is Fred Couples in a classic OPS stance prior to his swing? He is so upright, the farthest thing from what baffy is trying to fit him in...

LOL, a great line from a great movie, thank you golfobsessed, I needed that.

I feel the same way (obviously)...

I bet Fred Couples will hardly be able to sleep tonight knowing that people are arguing and can't figure out what type of swing he has.

Ok, I'll play.

Freddy Couples' swing has characteristics of both type of swings.  Take away his arms and his lateral move, then he has the body turn of the one-plane swing.  At impact, the location of his arms and elbow isn't exactly textbook in on the side of the one plane swing. 

What's funny is that Vijay Singh is called a one-planer even though his posture is similar to Freddy.  Even his lateral movement as well. 

Just my opinion.

Tim C.

Tim/all,

Don't you think it adds to the confussion of all if you start classifying golfers as having some OPS and some TPS motions. If that is the case than anyone holding a club can be a one plane swing golfer since the swing requires one to hold a club... Silly comparison but to the same point as "one plane on backswing, different plane on front swing" that comment alone states TWO PLANES...

Bottom line Fred Couples takes his left arm and raises it higher than his shoulder pln on the top of the swing (much like Colin Montgomry and David Toms), right there he has established a two plane swing, every thing else is a compensation of a correction. Fred Couples is a world class player and one who does not need to have his talent questioned, however his technique can be defined in order to help others. This site is meant (I feel for golfers to find answers to questions that have not been answered in 80 years of study. Jim Hardy and Chuck are putting out a structure from where a golfer can choose one or a two plane swing. When one mentions a third swing I feel it is a cop out to their original point, simplifying the learning process. There are and will be great golfers with one and two plane swings... We all have over looked/veiwed the swing too much in the past, thats go back to the beginning,there are "two swings" and each swing has different principles that cannot be confused. Really guys it is that easy...

I am not doing this to cause issuses or help Fred Couples sleep, I am doing this because the type of teaching of a hybrid swing/thought will put a lot of people back to the beginning... One plane = one plane two plane equasl two planes hybrid swing equals two planes

Hogan

Chuck any thoughts? your input could be helpful...

Hogan

Here's his swing in action. First pic, right elbow definitely behind his right hip, body rotating hard. Impact, right elbow still behind his hip. Compare this to someone like Tiger who has a two plane impact position and his right arm is level with the left and straight. Also note that Fred is open with his body at impact. Lastly, the club coming out below his left shoulder. The club moves pretty quickly to the left just after impact and this is evidence of that. Is he a pure anything? Yep - pure Fred Couples.

I guess the club has to move quickley to the left due to his slide and hard release.

Thanks Chuck, I never thought he was a OPS, but had not seen his "OPS" downswing before.  Interesting.  Do you have his transition as well.  Interesting to see what he does to get from 2PS to "OPS".

Chuck

What about analyzing Sabatini's swing ?  

It is quite unique and not a OPS at all !  Incredibly right elbow driven.  Never seen something like that before.

But who cares, he played beautifully in Nissan Open.

Arba,

I would have loved to to be in his mind last Sunday on the final 4 holes when he was playing Army golf--left, right, left.  I think nerves got the best of Freddie coming down the stretch--proving to all of us that mental game is where it's at.  He played beautifully all week, and when it came time to seal the deal he started spraying shots all over the place.  A good lesson of how the mind can destroy an beautiful, fluid and powerful swing like Freddie's.

Dean

Is not Hogan right though?  If we define the difference between the OPS and the TPS on the basis of the timing and sychronization, and then go on to say that the OPS is simpler because you don't have to rely on timing, at least as much, how can we describe Couples as a "hybrid"?  I can agree that he has a great OPS downswing and turn through the ball; but the point of the OPS as it was originally described and promoted was that you did not need to worry about timing the swing of the club, just "turn, turn, turn."  On that basis, it seems to me that Hogan is right:  hybrid swing = two-plane swing.

rprevost

rprevost,

in my opinion, that is a fair statement, but because the definitions are too specific with the swing the way Hardy laid them out, you end up with a "middle of the road" type of deal that probably more accurately describes 85% of the golfers on Tour. Interestingly enough, most teachers who teach a "two plane" swing teach something more similar to what is considered a "hybrid" swing by Hardy. I can honestly say I really don't know very many teachers who would touch Hardy's "two plane" idea with a ten foot pole. On that note, no one ever talks about his "two plane" ideas, only the one plane. As for "turn and turn", that is how I teach the swing, not Hardy. His methodology for the one plane swing is FAR more complex. When you guys see the stuff that is coming out in his new book and the drills, you'll see what I mean. He teaches the swing to be far more armsy and handsy than I do with a heavy reliance on forearm rotation to square the clubface.

Chuck,

Good point about Hardy's 2PS model--it's as vanilla and non-athletic a swing as you will ever see.  I personally think he makes the 2PS look so ungainly, clumsy and non-athletic just to put more emphasis on the 1PS--which is what he really promotes anyway.....

My thought on this whole thread is who cares how Freddie Couples swings the club.  He is a PGA Touring Pro who has the god-given talent to swing the way he does.  It's fruitless to disect his swing to determine what model he fits into.  He is pure living proof that you can indeed mix fundamentals and play superior golf. 

We should all just focus on playing the game and stop worrying about how the pros swing.  They are pros for a reason--they are damn good and they have a swing that they believe in.  If we would all commit to a swing that we believe in just think how much better we could all play.

Dean

CQ,

That's interesting because Haney's all about that forearm rotation - I've been watching Tiger on the range and he really rips that right forearm through the ball - and we know he learned at the knee of Hardy. Personally, I think it happens more than needs to be something you focus on.

Here's the thing with Freddie, and perhaps all of this nonsense about hybrids. What I think it all comes down to is how much are you going to employ your hands to manipulate the clubface? In Freddie's case, the answer is a lot. He's got the strongest grip this side of David Duval and he uses his hands as a major element in his swing. That's how he started hitting it all over the shop on Sunday. It's probably the best lesson in why the hands can't be trusted in the golf swing. To be fair to him, though, it was very cold coming down the stretch and I saw him rubbing his back quite often.

What really separates Hardy is bringing the club so far inside and keeping the back elbow back at all costs. This is his greatest contribution (well, to me!). Also, and not everyone will agree with this, but I think "no hands" is a breakthrough of amazing proportions.

Lefty

PS I watched a lot of players on the range at La Costa and I can report that this is what they had in common: NO swaying - staying very much over the ball - and getting to their right sides (for the righties).

Baffster,

What are you, an attorney? Read what I wrote. Tiger's the forearm rotater, Freddie's the one with the active hands. BTW, if Duval hadn't decided to turn his hands "over" - and never changed his grip - he would've spared himself all this heartache. Either "hold on" with the strong grip and hit those power fades, or release the club with a neutral grip.

How's that for sketchy analysis?

A thousand pardons? Well, ok ...

Tiger really rotates his forearms going back, much more than he used to, and hence, yeah, he rotates them as much as he has to ... which is a lot!

Freddie's got a great swing but I'd argue it's tempremental and doesn't really hold up under the cosh, as they say. He won a Masters because his ball somehow hung up in the rough. Other than that, a chronic underachiever. Also, he's a crap putter. I followed him and Tiger a few years ago and he completely out-played Tiger and yet, end of the day, Freddie was one-under and Tiger was five under.

He mostly turns the clubface shut, which is the obvious miss with that grip, but he can swing both ways, as it were. I remember the Booz Allen (what a bad name for golf tournament, by the way) a few years ago he hit a 9 iron into a par 3 into a place the announcers said no one had ever hit it.

My personal view on Duval is that he decided one day to start hitting draws.